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@dan

@noffle can you do me a favor and note which page talks about shamirs secret sharing back up scheme? it influenced dark-crystal and i never remembered to note it down to use to quote on dc website :-D

@dan
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@dan

It's one paragraph - but it will jump out at you :dash:

@piet
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@nikolaiwarner
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@kieran
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@jasongreen

Does anyone remember if the Walkaway computer network had a distinct name?

@Enso
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@nanomonkey
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@nanomonkey

Does anyone remember if the Walkaway computer network had a distinct name?

A quick search only finds the Walkaway network, no other name that I can find. There was a program called the lovedaresnot, which someone needs to implement:

One of the B&B’s game-changing tools was “lovedaresnot” ... The core idea was that radical or difficult ideas were held back by the thought that no one else had them. That fear of isolation led people to stay “in the closet” about their ideas, making them the “love that dares not speak its name.” So lovedaresnot (shortened to “Dare Snot”) gave you a way to find out if anyone else felt the same, without forcing you to out yourself.

Anyone could put a question — a Snot Dare — up, like “Do you think we should turf that sexist asshole?” People who secretly agreed signed the question with a one-time key that they didn’t have to reveal unless a pre-specified number of votes were on the record. Then the system broadcast a message telling signers to come back with their signing keys and de-anonymize themselves, escrowing the results until a critical mass of signers had de-cloaked. Quick as you could say “I am Spartacus,” a consensus plopped out of the system.

@adamsky
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@nanomonkey

@dan hassan
[kindle page 510.5 / 943]

“There’s plenty of crypto weenies trying to figure this out, using shared secrets so to split the key into say, ten pieces such that any five can be used to unlock the file.”

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@Robbt
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@Robbt

So yeah, we have psuedonymity but also I think that peoples "name" is written in a record forever meaning if you pick a name that can be traced to your "real" identity then its a simple process of discovering people. But yeah, perhaps its just avoidable and my own fear of this is just some deep-seated insecurity on my part. But yeah I think the people on here are definitely the sort of people I like and have the potential to build something akin to the walkaway net and culture.

@kawaiipunk
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@dan

#mmt are a crew of crypto #weenies

@dan

crypto-weenies.gif

@Dominic

walkaway-net most certainly is ssb. But it would be more accurate to say that walkaway and ssb are both about the same ideas.

Here, btw, is an interview where doctorow describes the influences on walkaway. I had also recently read debt:5000 years when before starting ssb. Also, I had already walked away, I mean, literally I was living in a mangrove swamp at the time I became interested in data replication! (ps, let me take this opportunity to seriously recommend swamp living) And I think, operating on a theory that people are basically good, but oppression is getting in the way of that goodness's expression.

It had occurred to me that a computer programmer with a grand vision had the choice to either attempt to implement it, or to write a science fiction novel about it. (got this impression from reading Neal Stephenson's stuff). I chose attempt to implement it, but knowing what I know now I'd say it's not the easy way! In particular I think, the world has to be ready for an implementation more so than a book.

I'd also been thinking about decentralized manufacturing (3d printing, or rather, what it could become) but realized that we needed decentralized information first. Otherwise, you just get "centralized streaming" as in The Diamond Age (published in 2000).

Oh on that note - "the drummers" in the diamond age are a sort of underwater sex cult that create a decentralized version of the 3d printing, and thus disrupt the neovictorians, (i.e. techbros). But the drummers are basically presented as a weird dangerous other in TDA, whereas walkaway presents them as the protagonists.

@nanomonkey

For more fun regarding 3d printing read Doctorow's Makers (free download]. His first book, Down and Out in the Magical Kingdom is all about a future reputation economy...and Disney Land.

@Alanna
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@mix

that diamond age breakdown is interesting @dominic !
I read the neovictorians not as tech bros ... tho now you mention it they weild a lot of power and tech, but what I focused on was there drive to reclaim or restore some values in their community, although ultimately they are failing because they were unable to grow a culture which would persist based just on rules.

the drummers felt quite different to the walkaways to me. I think the main differing aspect would be the lack of consciousness - one of the main characters that gets caught up with them is totally unaware of what is going on with his involvement with the drummers. But they are a force of emergence for a new pattern, which is def in common with walkaway

@Ed Summers
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@habitatm45
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@habitatm45

Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom was the book that hooked me with Cory's work. I started reading him well after I'd been involved in maker/hacker spaces. It just energized me to do more!

@abekonge

William Gibson's The Periphal had some interesting 3d printing makers, both in the recent now (the protagonist used to work for a fab lab, and the fab lab gets instructions from (a) future to build the interfaces they can control bodies with in the parallel far future. As to the other - the plastic-self-made-beings in the pacific from the beginning of the book in the far future is also some weird ass (self)makers.

@Dominic

@mix reconsidering this, I should have called said techbro/hipster. look at the (co-opted) hipster aesthetic - new fake old shit, "vintage" "artisan" there is a bit in TDA where they meet people who make handmade paper and carpentry - of course, everything is just printable, so something actually hand made means status. Also, steampunks at burningman

Victorians seem stuffy, post sexual revolution, but they were the start of the information revolution - (postal system and telegrams) also, liked to make themselves feel good about "improving" the "lower classes". TDA is essentially told from the perspective of the neovictorians, although via their wayward son, but it's a subjective story about a fictional universe, not an objective fact within that universe (#reject-cannon)

I think how TDA portrays the drummers is a lot like how the Zottas perceive the walkaways (indeed, they see it as a cult - they even need to "rescue" and "deprogram" iceweasel)

And of course, Walkaway paints the neovictorian equity lords as sociopathic control freaks, not part of a proud history of values, not promoting order and civility, but that doesn't preclude them seeing them selves as that.

@mix

ok, you've convinced me @dominic. I really like your point about subjective perspective of the narrator(s).
I think part of me admired the aspiration of the neovictorians to reform themselves, even if they fucked it up. The thing that creeped me out about the drummers was the shit in your body, subverting you vibe, but now has me asking a couple of questions:

  • does the ends justify the means?
    • if the drummers are the revolutionary catalyst which delivers a post-scarcity future ... is zombieing and burning up a few humans ok?
  • how is the mind / body control of the drummers that different to the insidious parts of society already polluting my mind / body?
    • I eat a heap of food which has all sorts of ingredients I probably should trust
    • I consume media which promotes/ endorses shitty patterns (e.g. gender norms)
    • I perpetuate crappy patterns al lthe time (by buying things, by lending power to institutions)
@Dominic

@mix I think you are still taking the story too literally. Those things definitely sound like not good things, but are you sure that's really what happened? I mean, whats the source here? maybe all this stuff get revealed after hackworth is brough before some neovictorian court of inquiry, and he puts it like that to avoid seeming like an active participant (he claims he was captured and brainwashed, rather a fugitive in hiding)... I am able to twist the story this way because the particular mindcontrolling aspect of the drummers isn't really very integral to the plot, I mean, you could insert something more like the walkaways into the slot the drummers are in, and keep most of the events of the story the same and it would still work. Like, is it ever explained why the drummers want to liberate the source, other than to create chaos?

Hmm, I think TDA isn't really about the glory of social hierarchy though, that's a backdrop. It's primarily about hackers or tricksters - agents of change slash chaos that exist at the fringes of those social hierarchies, and cause dramatic change to happen (not specifically for better or worse though) - hackworth is certainly that, and the Young Lady's Illustrated Primer is a machine for producing hackers (that somewhat backfires on Mr. X). But I think Stephenson's conception of the trickster is fundamentally individualistic.

But the walkaways arn't like that. They certainly have the technical skills and attitude to pass for characters in a Stephenson novel, but they driven far more by caring for each other, and talk about collaboration and empathy far more than any Neal Stephenson characters I can think of. And most importantly, that's not tacked on, it's integral to the plot, if you removed that aspect of the walkaways it would be a completely different book, whereas I think the drug-cult aspect of the drummers is a only a minor element of the overall story.

@mix

hmmm, I trusted the narrtion given to us, either because that's how I explore a story, or because there was enough distance in the narratin to believe it was more 'objective' (hah!).

[SPOILERS] - bail out of this thread and read Diamond Age if you've not already

I think what people find integral to stories is an important story in itself. We've already had an experience where you and I read different things from Cat's Craddle. I felt the drummers were important, they definitelt inserted a magical / surreal aspect to the world. It was ultimately unclear whether the drummers were driving the this revolution, or had been co-opted / hacked. I think that the Seed will emerge from the a subconscious trance space is relevant.

I think you like stories about trickers (so do I) but I didn't read that. I read the story of the fool more. (is the fool a trickers?... maybe, they have similar powers and a tricker isn't always in control or aware of the ramifications of their tricks). I think of hackworth as a fool because while he's critical of the neovictorians, he's also selfish - he hacks the book for his daughter initially yes ... and then gets caught in some blackmail, then slips and falls into a cult orgy computation pit. In the end the story feels like it overtakes him. He was just an uncionscious or accidental catalyst who had very few degrees of freedom after the first couple of chapters.

Certainly while TDA talks about social patterns, the journeys are much more individualistic, whereas in Walkaway you get to stand in the middle of archetypal social dynamics as they unfold... like you're being innoculated to be able to see e.g. scoreboard advocates.

@swapnil
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@kawaiipunk

I did start thinking about how we could start making SSB clients more privacy focused here: %4hhFzncJqlheBNp3CNGQPPEVCq xcf3TkcsM2ew35q3g=.sha256

I kind of feel there are lots of people who are walkaway now even in the global north. So many people are excluded from the economy that are still out there surviving and getting by. You have to think of it in the broadest sense.

What we haven't seen yet is the contraction of the land which is controlled by the forces of capital. There isn't much space to actually walkaway to without it being really remote, at least in the UK. Maybe that is my own privileged urban mind that thinks that way though :blush:

For example, autonomous spaces are often brutally repressed, for example the ZAD in France and the Hambach Forest in Germany. I know they have even had some legal issues at some of the eco-villages in Spain where they rebuilt communities in abandoned industrial spaces.

I think in the book, Cory puts this abundance of space down to climate change and automation, which is a totally legit analysis of a potential future. You can already see that in parts of the north here, where vast areas are really rendered of no use to the capitalist economy and are propped up through the public sector.

It really boggles the mind to try and predict these tendencies and I think Cory did an excellent job. Lovely guy if you ever get to meet him, he'll always spend ages chatting to fans and getting to know them. Can't wait to see what he comes up with next :smiley:

I would really like to continue this discussion on how we can make SSB more suitable for this long term vision of autonomous communities. Has ever tried to write some sort of collaborative wiki app for SSB? That is mentioned a lot in the book :seedling:

@kawaiipunk

Basically what I am saying is that Solarpunk = Walkaway :sun_with_face:

@kawaiipunk
Re: %Ybj7nPVEU

You might want to checkout this thread: %1M4sIe3...

@Dominic

@mix good point. I think the fool is certainly on the trickster spectrum - the fool is just a less competent trickster. Some characters consistently play the fool (i.e. Homer Simpson, or Tim "The Toolman" Taylor... every sitcom dad post 1990?) others slip into it occasionally (i.e. when an otherwise competent trickster overreaches and fails, for example the death of maui: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ui_(M%C4%81ori_mythology)#Quest_for_human_immortality_and_death )

Hackworth creates the primer, but it wasn't his idea, and he can't even successfully steal it from himself.

But the expressed (but secret) purpose of the primer is to _educate tricksters.
The main driver of that being Ginkle-McGrawl, some quotes:

I don't exactly know, Finkle-McGraw had said, but as a starting-point, I would like you to go
home and ponder the meaning of the word subversive.
Hackworth didn't have to ponder it for long, perhaps because he'd been toying with these ideas so
long himself. The seed of this idea had been germinating in his mind for some months now but had not
bloomed, for the same reason that none of Hackworth's ideas had ever developed into companies. He
lacked an ingredient
somewhere, and as he now realized, that ingredient was subversiveness.

it seems you are quite write about hackworth not being the trickster.

and in this exchange between Finkle-McGraw and Carl Hollywood:

I had the same idea: Set up a sort of young
artistic bohemian theme park, sprinkled around in all the major
cities, where young New Atlantans who were so inclined could
congregate and be subversive when they were in the mood. The
whole idea was self-contradictory. Mr. Hollywood, I have devoted
much effort, during the last decade or so, to the systematic
encouragement of subversiveness."
"You have? Are you not concerned that our young subversives
will migrate to other phyles?"
If Carl Hollywood could have kicked himself in the arse, he would have done so as soon as
finishing that sentence. He had forgotten about Elizabeth Finkle-McGraw's recent and highly publicized defection to CryptNet. But the Duke took it serenely.
"Some of them will, as the case of my granddaughter
demonstrates. But what does it really mean when such a young
person moves to another phyle? It means that they have outgrown
youthful credulity and no longer wish to belong to a tribe simply
because it is the path of least resistance-they have developed
principles, they are concerned with their personal integrity. It
means, in short, that they are ripe to become members in good
standing of New Atlantis-as soon as they develop the wisdom to
see that it is, in the end, the best of all possible tribes."

So, I put forward that it's about tricksters and their relationship to society at large, while the walkaways do have an interest in society at large (specifically, how egalitarian it is) they are much more concerned with their relationships to the people immediately surrounding them, their community.

@tsu
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@mix

mmmm, Finkle McGraw seems more like the trickster because he's actively subversive. I this that word summarises a core thread of the trickers nicely.

I think Walkaway resontes so well with people in this neighbourhood because this is a corner of people who are idealistic AND active. Like the walkaways, being a tricker isn't a primary driver, it's more of a hobby. Most notably the I think the trickster is only relevant in a context that needs breaking or reforming, whereas if you're already reforming you don't need as much trickster.... or rather the role of trickster becomes more one of maintenance - maintaining vigillance against lazy thinking or silly old patterns coming in.


btw my model for the fool archetype is a character written by Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy called literally The Fool.
Excellent series, amazing character. The Fool is revealed to have prophetic / catalytic powers, but is destined to not know the meaning or direction of what it is they're bringing into being.

@nanomonkey

@mix, Margaret Lindholm (Robin Hobb) writes some of the best fantasy that I've ever read, although she chooses the worst names for her books.

The Fool by Christopher Moore is another good read, it's roughly a comedic retelling of King Lear from the vantage of the fool.

@rmond
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@Yung Castr0
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@interfect

You need some zero knowledge stuff in there, and a defined list of participants.

@mix

@interfect what? ^^

@adamsky

@KawaiiPunk +1 for the idea of collaborative wiki app on ssb. I'm sure this was mentioned around here many times, but still, #somebodyshould

Probably #Ishould try to work on this myself, but that will have to wait until we get a Rust impl :sweat_smile:

@kawaiipunk

As long as it is on people's radar :bookmark_tabs: :books: I feel there is actually a lack of good Markdown wiki software for non git fluent folks even outside of the Scuttleverse.

Rust impl would be awesome! get involved :wink: A wiki would be a great way of archiving some of the main conclusions from the awesome discussions that are had on here.

@xj9

@kawaiipunk

a scuttlewiki would be amazing, i'd switch heropunch wiki over in a heartbeat!

def worth taking some cues from smallest federated wiki

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@ev

@xj9 ssb-wiki exists! But it's only implemented in mvd right now: %jUKpv+K...

@bobhaugen

@alanz

I wanted to learn more about how it's constructed and what it means.

Found http://fedwiki.org/view/fedwiki-tools but don't see this there. This might be the place: http://www.tim.au.fedwikihappening.net/view/narrative-chart

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@Mikael Brockman

This is a fascinating thread, and I just want to make a quick and easy driveby comment to state that my favorite aspect of the original wiki (the WikiWikiWeb of Ward Cunningham's "Portland Pattern Repository") was the fluid dynamic interplay between "thread mode" and "document mode", in other words the way pages would usually start as personalized discussion threads and eventually become edited into a coherent statement that might encompass opposing viewpoints.

The coexistence of both modes within a single page seems to contrast with e.g. Wikipedia's strict enforcement of public-facing neutral point of view articles with discussions only presented as internal conflicts on the separate talk pages.

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@xj9

@ev hot. i'll have to check it out

@bobhaugen

@alanz

And I just realised that @bobhaugen is actually looking for the source of that utility.

I was actually trying to understand what it meant. I think I don't understand how to use fedwiki well enuf to get it, though. Some day when I get time I'll come back and explore more and see if I can understand.

For example, I couldn't figure out how to get this to work:

if you double click on the part of a Recent Changes page you can put in parameters.

My interest here is if this kind of view would be useful in (for example) the ActivityPub fediverse (as another example of a federated network).

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@bobhaugen

@alanz

because it captures the changes on a shared artifact, I am not sure it would be useful in ActivityPub conversations, as they are not really the same thing.

Thanks for the explanation of what is happening there and how it (does not) apply to AP. I get it now, and agree.

@jasongreen

I did a fair amount of fiddling around with fedwiki, to which I was introduced by Mike Caulfield (see https://hapgood.us/tag/federated-wiki/page/1/) Mike implemented some of the same functionality in a WordPress project he called wikity. (http://wikity.cc/) My understanding is that Ward Cunningham developed fedwiki (fed.wiki.org) in part because the original wiki ended up very consensus driven and there was a perceived need for something that was less so.

@xj9

more wiki talk %BRyvrLd... %3woQ9BG... %2HYP9MQ...

@interfect

@mix If you use zero-knowledge proofs correctly, and if you have a defined list of participants who are allowed to vote agree on the questions, I think you should be able to tell that a critical number of people have voted agree without being able to tell who they are.

I'm not sure how you would structure the reveal step, though.

@Dominic
Re: %G/WQnJIfq

cross reference to walkaway

@mikey
Re: %8OSz3yZxd

@noffle you also already gave this great testimonial: %1M4sIe3... :smiley_cat:

getting into walkaway, and I can see clearly now, how ssb totally is the walkaway net!

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@YeisenAchitel
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