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SoundCloud is going out of collapsing,

So now is your last chance to hear this playlist I made of all the best covers of Lady In My Life by Michael Jackson (the original is not on the playlist, of course)

It's an hour and a half of the same song played in a variety of different styles, too much jazz - but that is what soundcloud gave me.


lol, couldn't decide between "going out of business" and "collapsing" so just settled on a compromise

Voted this

My favorite is the steel drum version (track 13) and @mixmix I think you'll find track 15 particularily interesting.


going out of collapsing

Calls to mind an image of corporate entities like red giants, collapsing in on their own mass until the only reminder of what once was is some IP that is being held by some other conglomerate.

Voted this

I'm really sad about this. I know I totally called this a year ago with my ferment README rant. But now that it's real, hmmm. I don't know what to think.

The old web really sucks. All that content will be lost forever.





Running now: dat://2098433be793383f799aa5180ce9c56e52d500063029fab7f80269427237ae1a/


oh oh. Marak Squires just emailed me about a p2p soundcloud... of course I invited him to join ssb


@Marak has arrived


Hello. What's the status with our p2p soundcloud? I'm currently at


hey @Marak , ferment has been on hold (partly due to too many projects, partly due to technical constraints).
I was about to help @mmckegg write up that list to help him put it down gracefully, but then this soundcloud thing happened, which feels like a unique opportunity for p2p ... we're gonna talk about it in the next day or two.


Will it be possible to provide a web interface that will allows users to stream music without installing anything?

I believe the crux of making this work is going to be implementing a bandwidth ratio system and also allow the ability to purchase subscription plans for additional usage.

I'm calculating the cost of bandwidth like: 320kbps streaming for 60 minutes = 115.2mb * 24 hours = 2.7 gigs a day = 81 gigs a month, which is like $12.15 a month if we have to buy additional bandwidth. I have been working on a business model to finance the project.


So a user could run the app at home donating some bandwidth, then use the mobile version later to consume bandwidth. That way we can regulate the upload ration from devices and connections that don't have good upload bandwidth. Content publishers could also pay extra to allow more people to listen for free.


Nice idea about publishers paying.

Some of what we talked briefly about was whether expecting an install was reasonable. Personally, I think if we can give people excellent p2p and a window into some cypherspace, that installing is a worthwhile comprimise. In my experience it also helps shift peoples expectations and questions when they encounter concepts of identity etc. in this space.

Further, comprimising in order to get something working in the browser is possible, but tends to be really hard to get to perform. One of the problems with ferment was that while it could work in the browser (some day), webtorrent's useage of websockets seemed to destroy CPU cycles.

I'm sure someone will crack it sometime.

Given people install spotify, etc as apps to play music, what do you think of the idea of just building an excellent app @Marak ?


@marak there is a plan to get ssb working entirely in the browser main obstical right now is getting the indexeddb adapter as fast as I want it to be. see websbot it can definitely be done... but working with indexeddb makes me sad );

But we also have a liteclient - like a liteclient in bitcoin, it's a little less than a full peer but still owns it's keys, so still decentralized... depends on the pub servers a little bit more.

Installing is kinda good in some ways because on the one hand, we get more freedom, but also users feel like they are in a fully new space. It can be a spectrum where there are still things you can do from the web, but the first class experience is from an installed app.


@mix I think having the install app will be part of the main experience and usage. Is the browser issue for upload and download? Would it be easier to have the browser version be "read-only"?

@Dominic I'd like to have the option for users to browse / listen from the web browser. We could say no publishing without the app. Not sure if that would help or not.

I'm currently writing up a few page proposal to post to reddit /r/electronicmusic. I bet it will get traffic. We need the network effect from musicians, like popular ones. If we can get a few mid to high level producers on this, it could take off.


@mixmix I wonder if the websocket performance problem was related to this?

hmm, that option seems to be disabled on webtorrent in the version ferment depends on (but also, quite a bit of work has been done on webtorrent since then, maybe a newer version is good)

@marak we got a read only viewer already:


Why is SoundCloud bleeding money so badly?

I figure the major part of the problem is cost of bandwidth and servers? It's literally impossible for them to afford free streaming for everyone? The more users the more they lose.

I'm guessing catered lunches and nice offices didn't help either.


Why is SoundCloud bleeding money so badly?

I did some investigation into this a while back, looking at what I could see into on annual reports goog/fb and they spent more on salaries than on expenses (servers, electricity, rent)
I mean, one developer at 100k/y is A LOT of bandwidth and storage!


@Dominic I think the CPU issue was a chrome bug, rather than webtorrent. It also might have been web rtc rather than websocket that was the issue. Can't remember.

But yes, it is totally possible that webtorrent cpu usage has improved (but I wouldn't hold my breath).

Time to rope in @Feross ?


Hail @Matt. Greetings. Good to see you here.


I'm going to post a bit of text to /r/electronicmusic to try and gauge their interest. I'm not sure we'll get much of reaction, but I am curious.


I posted here,

Not sure if anything will come of it, but I wanted to at least try to put a bit more spotlight on the work being done here.

I can still make updates if anyone wanted to add anything.


I'm hoping 700+ stars on Ferment within a day. ;-)


Talk about pressure :laughing:


fwiw i'm still game for replacing webtorrent with ssb-blobs.

i'm still more than fond of the idea and would love to help hacking.
it's just that i have no capacity to take on the maintainer/lead role. that might change around september, though.. ;)


@Marak pouring attention on ferment right now might not be a good idea - ferment servers are not currently up (trackers)


Seems to be getting some upvotes on /r/electronic music. This is kinda a new concept for a lot of people, but I think they are getting it.

I'm under the impression unless we can get some sort of funding that it's going to be hard to get full time development work going. I also think we'll need some known music producers to step up with new exclusive content to seed the network.

@mix I agree and disagree. Some attention is good now. Too much attention at this point would be bad. A working demo would be ideal, but getting the idea out there could help validate and fuel further work.


hey @Marak, great to see you here, appreciate the energy! :cat:


Good to see you as well @dinosaur, long time. You missed out on some fun in India. :-)


Anyone know how to answer this: How do you plan on prioritizing high-demand music while still allowing the unknown music to be heard?


Here's a good one: One of the things that put Soundcloud on the map was that it was and is easily embedded into websites like Reddit. How do you plan on addressing this?


I'm guessing we could have JS embed snippet via WebTorrent.


Someone is now interested in helping fund the project with possible financial support or bandwidth. I'm reaching out to them now for more details.


Anyone know how to answer this: How do you plan on prioritizing high-demand music while still allowing the unknown music to be heard?

we can support the "long tail" with more eager gossip: sharing files that you have ever liked, not just pop hits or your most recent favorites. @Dominic has brought this up before, see "long tail" search.


Nice! I guessed a response that Social Gossip would magically fix it. Good guess :-)


People are feeling the idea today. It's fresh in everyone's minds. Getting good responses on Reddit.


Someone is now interested in helping fund the project with possible financial support or bandwidth. I'm reaching out to them now for more details.

worth mentioning the opportunity here for "pub-as-a-service": %v85QBOg.... basically for Scuttlebutt, where we provide a paid subscription service for cloud-hosted highly-available peers with painless configuration. while it doesn't compare to decentralized purity, in comparison to a SoundCloud subscription, this makes even more sense!


I understand @dinosaur . I was already thinking about that. I'd guess we'd make hosted pub a specific paid feature of the p2p soundcloud, but it could eventually be spun into something more generic. I'd probably want to make it work well with one app first.


Wow! Many posts and replies this morning on Reddit.


Hey @Marak any opinion on the post I had about discord?


@Vatyx Which post?


@Marak Hmm thought it got posted. Let me put it here.

"Hi guys, I found out about this through the thread on /r/electronicmusic and I love the idea and would want to be a part of it. One quick idea I had is could we make a discord for this rather than only keeping the conversation here? It seems like it will be easier to communicate (both messaging and voice), easier for new people to join and also we can create bots to help with development. What do y'all say?"


@Vatyx For sure we can do something like that! The Reddit post was a bit of a test run. We will setup additional social channels to gather the community.


@Marak I can set up something like that right now just to get the ball rolling :D just wanting to know if you had an idea on the name of the project. You could also set it up if you want.


There is also a hosted Ethereum and IPFS service, as scalable blockchain infrastructure.



Need to discuss it more with the developers in here. I liked the idea of the name "Dapster". Currently @Matt latest build is called "Ferment"


Ok, I've created a basic server which anyone can join and we can change the name later. I think it would be worthwhile to move the discussion there and set up basic channels for throwing ideas around/similar projects/etc.


Cool. I'm guessing this could be a good place for conversations for people who aren't ready to install Patchwork yet. I'm glad you made it here @Vatyx


Glad you are on board. I do think it should be for all conversation inside of dividing it up between here and there.


@Vatyx you should appreciate that all the developers are already on here, and this is in fact the same P2P discovery network the service will be built on. This isn't just some random chat application we are inside.


True, my apologies. I was too keen.


One real question I did have is how is this going to be related to Ferment in terms of development. Is it just going to be taking the same approach from scratch or is it going to be expanding on the already existing codebase?


It depends on a lot of on how @Matt wishes to proceed.

A lot of the underlaying technologies are separate libraries, so it wouldn't be hard to build from it from scratch if we chose to. I think what will happen is a rewrite of some of Matt's code ( which he's been planning ). So, probably a combination of re-use and re-write.


We've got a lot of developers who want to help. Getting tons of responses from Reddit. The NZ guys should be starting to wake up in the next few hours. Looking forward to making a plan of attack.

Voted this

ArchiveTeam estimates Soundcloud is 2.5PB, which is an order of magnitude larger than the largest site we've saved before (MobileMe). Some form of targeted archival seems likely, but lots of stuff is gonna be lost probably. Unless they ship the drives to someone for archival, they probably lack even the bandwidth for that much to be downloaded from them. ArchiveTeam is currently in the "scrape an index of all the data" phase.


@Joey Hess Are you associated with ArchiveTeam?


@marak A big part of the reasoning for the social design of ssb is that I figured we'd be able to handle the long tail. Bascially, if you follow someone (and @matt wants "scoped follows" which is a way of following them just for music etc) then it would "sympathetically" replicate music blobs they post - so you could support your favorite underground artists by specifically boosting them replicating and sharing their stuff as soon as it's available and ensuring that there are always at least a couple of seeders for it. For really popular content, this isn't necessary, just for niche material.

You could also design this idea into the UI - in apps like this normally they show recommendations of popular stuff they like, and sure show that, but what if you also recommend the weird stuff someone listened to that you've probably never heard?


Greetings @Dominic , are you on NZ time?

The reddit thread blew up and is getting a good amount of responses. A few people have brought up this long-tail issue with their past experiences with Oink and Here is a good quote:


@marak yup just woke up.
yeah bittorrent doesn't make an allowance for rare gems at all. But since that is what people have experienced, they are naturally skeptical this might work. We just have to show the a different experience. Like, ul/dl ratios for popular content, but handle rare content differently. This is social p2p, the rules are different!


@Dominic Are you on your boat? Can your bandwidth support a video or voice call? I wanted to catch up a bit and talk about this idea with you if you are free.


Just throwing out some quick responses to things I've seen in the reddit thread:

Regarding bitrate/formats:

My experiments have shown that encoding everything as VBR (variable bitrate) 128 kbps opus sounds amazing! This is what Ferment is using now. Because it is VBR (128 is just the target average), the file size varies depending on the complexity of the track. It is natively supported by modern web browsers.

There is no reason to also offer 320kbps mp3. Ferment handles this right now by converting to 320 kbps mp3 when you "Save" from the interface (since this format is the most supported in players and devices).

By the way, soundcloud only provides 128 kbps constant bitrate mp3 streams.

With SSB, individual peers can block content and unfollow (this includes pubs) but there is no central control. This means that it is impossible for one person to take something down completely. But it also dilutes the liability considerably. There is no single "take-down" destination. DMCAs would need to be sent to all pubs (good luck).

Discovery network

This is really just a big pub that a lot of people with common interests join. The way ferment works right now, is that you see all posts in "Discovery" mode from all other members of pubs you follow.

Upload / Download ratios

I'm not sure how important this is as long as we map the flows of data to actual social networks. Popular content will naturally be replicated a lot more so we can spread out the load. Niche content will be via friends. It's all about trust man.

You would automatically cache everything you listened to (maybe some kind of RLU?). And automatically download everything from people you follow (and seed it). This is why we need to keep the bitrate low (some experiments showed that even 96 kbps opus was comparable to 320kbps mp3).

Mobile devices (and web)

The best way would be an app. But some form of lite-client is possible. This is dependent on a pub (but you still have your own keys). Web RTC is now supported on all mobile platforms so we can do peer streaming.

However older devices would have to fallback to some kind of direct http download. This would be the hardest thing to handle. Maybe we just don't? Or maybe it only works if a feed has a "public proxy"?


@marak yeah, we do the ssb calls over mumble, i'll dm you the deets - I was just about to go ashore and use the libraries wifi to test a heavy thing - can we make it in one hour? Are you in still in EU or back in US?


I'm currently in NYC, but will be up for a bit. Ping me when you get back and I'll reconnect to mumble. Cheers.


Greetings @Matt. Reading your replies. Good information. Have you considered your involvement moving forward? Would you be willing to try and make a genuine p2p replacement for SoundCloud?

I feel that unless we raise funds to sponsor the development it's going to be hard to keep everyone working and focused. I'm keen on the idea of potentially working together on this, but I'm also considering options for creating a new project with a similar technology stack.

I want to make something awesome that many people will use. I also want to try and help support SSBC. I'm already talking to a few potential investors. I want to move fast on this while the SoundCloud announcement is still fresh in everyone's minds.

FYI, we got a really awesome response from Reddit. Everyone wants this to happen and I believe we can do it!


@Marak I'm on a call with @Matt about this in a minute. We'll come back in the next day with some ideas.
In short, we're also feeling the opportunity, and are interested in coordinating something.


idea: native multitrack format, so as easy as possible to remix: get instant accapella or instrumental versions, and also link back to original sources.

@marak cool, will do


@mix Sounds good. I'm planning to chat with Dominic later to catch up a bit on where SSBC is at. I'm around today if you'd like to have a quick call.

I find it pretty funny that as soon as I started to Google enough about anyone working on a peer-to-peer soundcloud, I run directly into Dominic and friends. We use to work at the same company together. I sent him a cold email about a p2p soundcloud within hours of him posting here. We are all having similar thoughts.


@Dominic (if you've only tried that route). Plus maybe moving from snappy + json to deflate/LZMA + CBOR? As IO would be slower than CPU.


@neftaly hmm, interesting, the approach that I've been trying is to just write whole blocks to the store - that is to provide the aligned-block-file interface. This makes writing quite large amounts quite fast - less ops (from indexeddb's perspective) but more data in each one. It does put us in the absurd position of building a low level filesystem on top of indexeddb then building a database on top of that.


@Matt @mix @Dominic @dinosaur

Have you guys seen LBRY?


There is also




vaporware is bestware


Hi. I contacted Marak yesterday about providing some various support for the project. I really like the idea of a totally decentralised project and sharing (in general, to be honest, not specifically just for music!)

Is there any merit to extending the remit to share and index files in general (videos, software, ebooks, 3d printing stuff) to try to create a more in-depth database of stuff? That could possible pull in people from various other communities that might be involved. I suspect open source software would be very popular.

I can offer some financial support (I'm not a millionaire but I can certainly help fund some of the inevitable costs) as well as hosting, websites and marketing. I work as a data analyst so data mapping and process/UI/UX design and evaluation are things I can help with as well. I'm also happy to fund and run some seedboxes to help ensure that first users can actually hear something.

From what I can gather, the program could use multiple pubs, one/some of which could be "official". Is that right?


I feel like all these services are trying to solve the wrong problem. Music should be free to listen to. Artists should get paid for performances or commercial use of their works. Not for streaming.

No users want to pay for music. Users want free music.


I also want free performances.

Also free rent.

Also free food.

Also free everything.

Is that so much to ask?


Is your thought that we should only have in scope Creative Commons (or similar) licensed works and not have a monetisation platform?


You can already go online now and pirate full quality digital content with little fear of legal repercussions. That is the expectation many users have.

If you try to gain entrance to a performance without a ticket, try to take food from the grocery store without paying, or try to live in apartment without paying rent, the expectation is that you will get in trouble.

There is a big difference between digital goods and physical objects.


@marak I'm a founding member.


I made a UI ontop of Maf’s soundcloud-to-dat module. Over 5k tracks backed up! Not only that, it also creates an index file with audio players for all of your tracks (more a proof of concept than anything) that you can open in Beaker!

Some nice action here, too:


@ansuz completely reasonable in my opinion. Surprisingly, being rent-free is one of the easiest to accomplish.

Voted this

@bumcheekcity sharing different sorts of things is indeed pretty similar from the perspective of the software, but it's quite different from the perspective of marketing. People who are into music naturally form communities, so if you get some they'll pull more in with by word of mouth. But the idea of ssb is to be a general protocol, but then have apps that serve specific communities/markets (such as independent musicians) - much of the code will be the same but the UI will look different.

@Howard Klein

Yeah honestly I love doing to the orchestra but the idea of paying money for a digital product is laughable to me. Ironic because at my job we just spent $$$$$$$ on microscope software that implements an algorithm available for free elsewhere...


@mix Any updates? I think we might be able to do an ICO to get this started. Been trying to figure out a monetization strategy ( in order to make this appealing for investors, but still make sense for the service.


@marak if you are gonna do a ICO you need some sort of currency token thing, and how would that work for something that is all about music?


Worth looking at Resonate Coop, too:


I think we need a thing to be able to "follow" a git-ssb repo, or a git-ssb user, and then automatically replicate whatever they push. The same would be really useful for p2p music as well as maybe #dat #ipfs #beaker!


@Dominic That's what I have been scratching my head about. Got kinda stuck.

I thought of two possible methods but neither seemed incredibly great.

  1. A tipping system where users could tip content creators for their work. This would be difficult to enforce ownership without a proper checksum / ID system for copyright enforcement. You wouldn't want people getting credit or paid for materials they didn't create.

  2. Sell credits that equated to minutes, so if you bought credits you would get to stream a certain amount of minutes. This wouldn't work well in a P2P system, because it wouldn't be enforceable. You could just switch trackers or change the code. Plus it would infer "not free" to use the system.

I'm really not sure how to proceed. It seems that the project is a lawsuit waiting to happen with no means of viable income. I don't see how an ICO would be good for anyone in this case. It feels like the only way a system like this gets built is via a crowdfund or independent financier.

I'm open to suggestions if anyone has any ideas. @mix @Matt @dinosaur


It feels like the only way a system like this gets built is via a crowdfund or independent financier.

...or from people who just want to make something cool, e.g. ssb itself!

That there doesn't seem to be any viable means of income actually makes it more appealing to work on in my view, as that itself acts as a kind of filter for the people working on it. At least from the project's point of view, artist compensation would however be a cool thing to solve (however partially).

(Regardless, Soundcloud thrived in this kind of space. Some people just want to get share sketches and others want to partake.)


Yeah, my plan with #ferment was to fill the soundcloud hole without requiring any income or money from the project. If it can't do that, it's really no better IMO.

It should be a product of the community for the community. A commons. And the topography should be mapped to the community too, rather than a centralised discovery platform. This is mostly about reigning in the giant tap of content, but also addresses the lawsuit problem.


@Marak why not a social network for music? i pay a provider for a server to seed my favorite music for my followers. if you want to stream the latest hip tunes, make some friends! this way the business is clear ("provide an easy interface for cloud infrastructure running p2p music sharing software") and users directly control their role in the p2p data ecosystem.

see also @paul's recent blog post: In response to “Is Decentralized Storage Sustainable?”.


I don't understand why people worried about monetization and lawsuits here.

ssb uses a gossip protocol to gossip feeds on a friend of a friend basis. These feeds are signed, meaning you know who they came from.

This makes ssb an amazing network for independent artists. You can become known by your friends, they can share your music, and you can become known by the friends of your friends.

Isn't this what we're after? A replacement platform for independent artists who are deciding to publish their music on ssb of their own accord?

If this is the case people shouldn't worry about monetizing, that's up to the artists.

If this the case y'all shouldn't worry about lawsuits, because I will unfollow, block, and remove any blobs that aren't uploaded by independent artists.


I agree soooo wholeheartedly with your sentiments, @ev, @dinosaur , and @matt .

I think if we are discussing monetization, and how to appeal to the mass public enough to match the reach of Soundcloud or even Spotify, if we are describing music fans as "users" and musicians as "tippable creators" is missing the heart of what makes something like Ferment exciting.

I like listening to my friends' music, and I like sharing things inspired by it. I like sharing my own music to my friends. I like it when this continual sharing and supporting expands into a scene. This is a thing that has been endlessly sustainable in real life. What is the way in which you can extend this online, using the full power of the technology we have these days to just better extend human relationships?

One of the most appealing things about SSB is that it is designed to match actual human interactions and relationships-- and because of this it ends up far more radical, encouraging, and open than other social media platforms I've experienced. SSB doesn't replace any current system I'm using: instead it creates in me the rush of pure possiblity and connection I felt when i first went online. I don't need features or mass appeal if I have that.

In the same way, when designing a p2p music-sharing platform, I think the focus should be on how to bring back the sense of joy you had when first sharing your art online, and discovering something incredible someone else made. That platform could be very small--at its heart it really only needs two people-- but if it is honest, and dignified, and correct then it will grow, because people are drawn to things that feel good.

I think that any alternative to an aged and corrupt centralized streaming model has to be new and unknown: and if it new and unknown we should allow it to be small and clumsy too, so it can grow up on its own. Deciding upon scale and monetization for this idea is similar to deciding to raise a baby only if it can articulate how it plans to retire.


The problem is that it's never going to get built unless there are developers available to make an actual production ready application.

There is a reason why we don't have a working version of Ferment right now. It's unreasonable to expect someone ( or a team of people ) to work on this full-time or even part-time without compensation. It just will never get done. Will never be bigger than a pet project. As of today, we don't even have a working pet project. Who here is able to work for free to make it a reality? I think no one.

I talk of monetization because I've spoken to people willing to invest money in order to make this a reality. For them, it would be an investment. I'm sure there are others who would be willing to donate money, but without a clear plan for sustainability ( some form of monetization ) we have no way to guarantee the continued development of the project. As of today, I don't see anyway an ICO could work.

I'm reading a lot of optimistic and idealistic views here, but I am not seeing much pragmatism. I really want to see this built and working at scale. @dinosaur has a decent suggestion for reselling server space to host SSB nodes. That could be a revenue stream that would help support the project.


Yeah, the project will need some backing. I have enough spare to provide financial support in terms of hosting charges, and I could easily supply large amounts of bandwidth - a few hundred pounds a month is doable. But ways will need to be found to fund devs.

Crowdfund seems like the best option, but then a genuine and proper plan and roadmap is needed to present to people. There's a LOAD of reddit boards that would be interested, and I think if you got the LateStageCapitalism lot somehow enthused, you could find a fair bit of funding.

How much money would be needed to get it to a working stage?


@marak has an important point, although I also agree with everyone who is arguing with him. A hobby/obsession project is great, but to make something that is really really good, you need to deal with an excruiating amount of detail. What we have currently is, indeed, pretty impressive for the work of a bunch of rag-tag misfits. Especially considering that mostly we just work on the fun bits, and the boring bits but necessary bits just lay undone for who knows how long.

For this reason, it's my policy to try to encourage people who might want to build something on ssb, even if they are crazy, ESPECIALLY if they are crazy. I'm not gonna try and veto things that I might not like being built on top of the protocol (not the same as into the protocol, I'm gonna fight to get that right!) because if they get successful, that will help pull the protocol along.

The other ideas about how to scale the development of ssb stuff are even crazier, anyway, like Mad Science University, or Open Source Monastery, or buy tiny farms for everyone. (and like, I totally want these things too, but one thing at a time!)

I didn't want to crowdfund ssb (we talked about it) because we didn't want to hock vaporware - but a lot of people have heard of ssb now, and development is quite a bit along, maybe it should be reconsidered? I think I especially like the idea of crowdfunding a separate app, that is not ssb core.

@mix anyone ?

re crowdfunding I'm more keen on Open Collective than something where people buy rewards (yucky consumerism)


I should clarify that I'm 100% for finding ways to make money on ssb, using ssb, or building ssb. I want to get paid to work on this project. I've spent a lot of time scratching my own head about how to do that. Serving brews at a restaurant is not, and has never been, my goal in life.

However, I haven't been able to hit on what the opportunity is yet. But I am sure that the head scratching gets a lot more complicated when we specifically think about monetizing a music sharing platform -- the history behind that is a legal nightmare. Soundcloud overcomes this by paying oodles of moderators, as does every other centralized social network. But this is also why Soundcloud will have to shut down at a certain point, because they can't afford to pay the moderators anymore.

I'm focusing on making ssb as easy as possible to build on top of, so we can present as many opportunities as possible to as many people as possible with this distributed social networking platform.



It's up to you guys. I'm willing to put in the upfront effort required to put the word out and raise attention. I'm also willing to put in the follow-up development work required to see such an endeavor succeed.

Monetization of P2P SoundCloud is a pipe-dream. The only way that gets built is through donations.

I think if we all pooled our resumes, the "Open Source Monastery" could raise a decent amount of funding. We could use these funds to develop Ferment, SSB, and other SSB related projects. Together we are strong.

If we were to theoretically do that, we'd need to set budgets and have someone to act as treasurer. If we magically had $500,000 in a bank account tomorrow, we'd need a responsible, sustainable, and accountable way to distribute funds to the developers that was transparent to our backers. A combination of Open-Collective and cryptocurrency could be a good idea.

I believe in the talent pool we have here, so I'm willing to put myself out there and try. I've worked with some of you before and I know this isn't a vaporware situation.

In order to move forward on this topic, I'd like to request a vote.

If we can unanimously agree that we want to raise funds as a group, we can move the conversation forward to determining how this would actually be done.

I vote: Yes, we should collectively try to crowdfund development.

All opinions will be respected. Please speak your mind. This only works if we can all agree.


This is a good thread, and I've also been thinking about monetization (or the lack of monetization) on SSB.

I agree with @mmckegg

It should be a product of the community for the community. A commons.

Also with @ev

I should clarify that I'm 100% for finding ways to make money on ssb, using ssb, or building ssb. I want to get paid to work on this project. I've spent a lot of time scratching my own head about how to do that.

To explain what I think, I'll use a bottom-up approach.

Part 1

To make money, businesses either:

  • Exploit some property
  • Provide a service

Usually internet businesses that provide a service do so through software (not through people, unless it's Mechanical Turk), so you can't count services as a business themselves, it's more like software is the property (that's why it's proprietary software) and you rent the use of that software, which in turn services you. And the raw materials that are properties in the computer or internet world are:

  • Energy, i.e. solar power (level 0)
  • Processing hardware, i.e. CPU (level 0)
  • Storage hardware, i.e. hard drives (level 0)
  • Networking hardware, i.e. submarine cables and backbone networks (level 0)

On which you can build properties:

  • The electricity grid (level 1)
  • Processing warehouse, i.e. supercomputers (level 1)
  • Storage warehouse, i.e. datacenters (level 1)
  • Internet access, i.e. ISPs (level 1)

Which in turn (level 2):

  • Proprietary software
  • Infrastructure as a Service
  • Platform as a Service
  • Software as a Service

Which in turn (level 3):

So it's all about owning some property, and renting that in different ways. Advertisement can be seen as renting screen time on a demand-side economy of scale platform, like Facebook.


Part 2

This may sound obvious, but it's useful emphasizing: on the gradient of decentralized-centralized, the amount of property owners is smallest when centralized (meaning concentration), and largest when fully-decentralized. Also the average company profit is highest when fully centralized, and lowest when fully decentralized.

Why is company profit so low when fully decentralized? That's because in relation to property, when you have 100% decentralization, it means each person owns everything they need. This currently doesn't happen, but it could theoretically happen:

  • You own kickass level 0 energy, kickass level 0 processing, kickass level 0 storage, kickass level 0 network hardware
    • (imagine you have a mobile device with very good specs, attached to a very good compact solar panel, and an antenna which connects to satellites, like GPS, and then you're fully autonomous regarding internet connection)
  • You own all the software you use (it's either proprietary and you have the source, or not yours but open source)
  • We all use CJDNS, IPv6

Those three assumptions remove a lot of business opportunities because you really don't need to rent anything else. If everybody is in such situation, you then don't need level 1 properties, and neither Shit-as-a-Service. Also Big Data crap is impractical because it would take a lot of effort to ask for everyone's data (instead of owning their data in the first place). You could still create some cool proprietary software and rent it, but I'll get to why we should avoid proprietary, later.

But we're not in that situation yet, primarily because we're utterly dependent on submarine cables, therefore ISPs, and therefore Hosting-as-a-Service, such as AWS etc. There is a business to be made in hosting for P2P, because we're not online all the time (because we don't have kickass level 0 energy on our phones 24/7) so we need an always-online server to do that for us. Or we have limited storage (because we don't have kickass level 0 storage). Or we have those two but the device gets slow and laggy (because we don't have kickass level 0 processing).

So there you go, there's a business opportunity in selling kickass level 0 hardware, but first you need demand, you need people to understand the benefit of owning their own stuff, and most of us are software people (I assume), so it may be a stretch to enter that market. But it's totally possible, and the crypto world seemed to not be afraid of trying it, now there are kickass level 0 crypto devices like Trezor or Ledger Wallet, I own one and I'm a happy customer.

Now let's talk about software. SSB is a fully decentralized software for social networking and social data. It does that in order to avoid remote trust. It turns out that personal data is like money, and you want to store it in somewhere super safe. But we don't have the bank-equivalent for personal data (some people use Google for personal data the same way they use banks for money, with the same amount of trust), but Google has proven it cannot be trusted. If you think of real banks, the most trustworthy bank is one that provides you full transparency: they have a vault just for you, with real dollars inside, they give you a tour and let you see that with your own eyes, and there are surveillance cameras, etc. The point being: trust is created with transparency.

I have a theory that basic ingredients for corruption are: (1) asymmetric power (centralization), (2) opaqueness (no transparency), (3) obfuscation (through complexity or lies). It's not always the case that when you have those ingredients, you have corruption. However it seems to me that if you have corruption then it requires those basic ingredients. If you kill the ingredients, you kill corruption.

To kill corruption you do the opposite: (1) distributed power (full decentralization), (2) full transparency, (3) simplicity, honesty, straight-forwardness. Number (2) is why we need open-source, and how it's hard to make a business with software as rented property.

Which leads me to my final point: making money doesn't need to be making profit. Wikipedia is one of the most important websites today, and it's a non-profit, so is Mozilla. What's important is that people have a decent salary, a decent support for their living costs, etc. Profit is like nitro, it makes everything "more", but we might not need a wicked profit machine in order to do what we need. Note that companies like tech giants get billions in revenue every quarter, but to pay a team of 10 developers, you don't need that much. And 10 developers gets you far. Like Instagram far. Or WhatsApp far. You get the point. You don't need 2000 developers.

I'm more and more warming up to the idea of a non-profit. I think with the correct articulation of purpose, passion, and demonstration of genuine innovation, you can convince both individuals and organizations to regularly donate. Wikipedia struggles with donations, but notice it also has to pay for servers, we wouldn't (... I guess).

OpenCollective is one way, but I'd like to propose thinking bigger. OC is a for-profit company in Silicon Valley, and they have a 10% fee. I'm happy to use them (weekly, I just used some funds like yesterday) for Cycle.js framework, but for something as big as The Next Cool Thing, you want to be in a different jurisdiction and under different business assumptions.


Oh, here's an appendix story to support this part:

This may sound obvious, but it's useful emphasizing: on the gradient of decentralized-centralized, the amount of property owners is smallest when centralized (meaning concentration), and largest when fully-decentralized. Also the average company profit is highest when fully centralized, and lowest when fully decentralized.

Consider gaming.

At one point, a multitude of companies owned a lot of gaming hardware. Arcades. There was a business to be made, and it was a repeatable business model. You could "open" an arcade by buying some hardware and renting it.

Then something weird happened when consoles came around. It kind of decentralized stuff in one way, because you could own your gaming hardware and share it with friends, rent it to friends (for a smaller and more informal price an arcade would), etc.

Also in the meanwhile, things like LAN gaming centers started appearing, and it was a rather repeatable business model: buy some gaming PCs, buy some games (or just torrent-download them!) that support LAN multiplayer, and rent those.

Over time, game makers stopped supporting or highlighting LAN multiplayer because they noticed they could roll their own multiplayer-as-a-property (case in point: Battlenet) and suddenly there was a new business model, which eventually gave rise to Steam, Xbox live, PlayStation Network, etc.

Back to consoles, that market got clustered, it re-centralized with 3 companies: Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft. And yeah those aren't interested in selling hardware for people to own, they are heavy on the renting business (it seems even if you buy a physical disc, you still don't "own" that game, it's like a license, even for singleplayer games). It appears businesses woke against the threat of full decentralization before they could lose their chances of making money. Now they own the shit: developers are their property, games are their property, multiplayer are their property, etc. There are less companies involved, and the average company profit is higher (I didn't actually factually check this :smiley:).


Oh and I kind of dismissed the opportunity of selling kickass level 0 hardware, but in case someone thinks that could be attempted, here's some additional thoughts:

There's nothing that beats submarine internet cables. We need an alternative to that.

It's complicated because how can one person own a submarine cable? It's as impractical as owning a large ocean port. One possibility is co-owning the submarine cable through some kind of cryptocurrency. But that requires maintenance of the cables, which requires some admin overhead, and then at that point we're essentially recreating the same business model that's already in existence.

So, instead of into the ocean, you could go to space. It's becoming more common to launch mini satellites, so technically each person could own one mini-satellite, which doesn't require maintenance because lol how are you going to maintain that in orbit.

But the biggest hassle is the launch, which costs millions and you want to launch a bunch of mini satellites at the same time, so you need to sort of co-rent the launch. Maybe you could do it kickstarter style, or ICO style, I don't know.

The other opportunity is creating better hardware for mesh networks, but then you require demand-side economies of scale so everyone uses the same hardware/protocol to make gossip spread fast enough. You could do this on the software side, but then it's a software business and I already covered why it's a bad idea to not do open-source if you follow the principle of avoiding corruption. If you don't care about corruption, you're probably already in silicon valley trying to get VC money for some startup and eventually get bought by a tech giant.

Maybe there's a market opportunity to make P2P-oriented mobile phones, that come pre-installed with a rooted Android-based OS, plenty of storage, etc.


@andrestaltz maybe it's time to ressurect an old project of mine:

The idea was to do iterative crowd funding, do agile instead of waterfall. Don't just get a massive lump sum at once, do regular roughly equal rounds. Give the supporters something to play with, and negioate what is needed most with them. My idea is that although you can't reliable sell software (as @andrestaltz you have to build real estate / fudalism into it) because it can't be with held reliably - but you can with hold software you havn't written yet or rather, you can sell votes to a what should I build next? decision.

I back-burnered this idea, to work on ssb basically, because I wanted something worth using it for (rather than just the insidious building of itself)... but maybe it's time now?

relavant, here are some blogposts I wrote about this at that time:


@Dominic I would think your time is better spent focusing on the core technologies. If we try to do everything, we will end up accomplishing less.


@marak oh I totally agree - I was just putting this forward as a candidate mechanism, it's not complicated at all, it's just a web server that creates a progress bar gif showing bitcoin at an address upto a target amount.


@dominic I love the idea of

You can’t sell software, but you can sell a promise to write software.

That's spot on: programmers own system ideas as property (why "system ideas"? because programming is the activity of shaping and reshaping the current software to fit our imaginary idea of a system that delivers the features we want. programming is that activity of extracting those ideas from our brain)

I sort of like your idea of selling agile sprints, but I'm a bit concerned about doing multiple payments: one for each sprint. In my opinion, things like OpenCollective work because people are excited to endorse a project that associate with, and because the payment is recurrent and so it requires some effort and personal embarrassment to terminate donations. The initial backing happens usually from the desire to be recognized as being useful to that project. Rarely, IMO, is it about requesting features. That said, we can still send out surveys to ask backers what they think are features of high priority.

What's very important in a deal like OpenCollective is full transparency. Letting people know exactly to which features is the money going is good, so it doesn't feel like "i'm giving recurrent payments for these folks to do whatever".

I think an iterative crowdfunding could still work, but I'm quite certain automatic recurrent payments are the way forward. To be honest, I'm not so keen on textbook agile. I think all that's needed is a huge backlog, and some occasional prioritization, like every 3 weeks or so.

Also I tried bitcoin donations, they're a bit sad because not many people own bitcoins. We should have bitcoin and paypal, at least.

I don't know if and how we should take the next step towards this, but I'd recommend we start small, and plan for the big in case things grow. For instance, I'd recommend personal donations to person A only, and then if there are enough funds, include person B, etc. I've seen the Webpack OpenCollective scale up too fast and now they're running out of donation funds already. This conversation probably interests @Alanna by the way.

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I find feedopensource much more interesting than open collective or gittip/gratipay style recurring donations.

From the backers perspective on feedopensource, paying for an iteration cycle is much more transactional: there is some set of objectives and if you want those features to be baked into the software sooner rather than later, you can pay to have the developer spend more time on this project and iteration, rather than anything else they could be doing.

From the developer perspective on feedopensource, the payment for milestones are set on the terms of labor. This pricing reflects both the opportunity cost of working on free and open source software instead of commercial software and also is a way for the developer to state how much they need in compensation to be working on these things at all.

The alternative, the open collective / gratipay model, does not really reflect these options as well. Speaking from my own experience, this donation model also creates anxiety to be working on the nebulous things that people are donating for you to be working on, rather than the projects that you can explicitly create a budget for according to your own expenses and alternative work options.


@dominic Please do resurrect feedopensource, or at least renew the ssl certs with letsencrypt. I think even in the rough state of the last iteration, it's usable enough to use for some projects besides itself.


@andrestaltz I'm definitely with you on non-textbook agile!

The main reason I did non-recurring payments was just because there was no way to do them with bitcoin. I did raise 2k usd in bitcoin with this, so I think that qualifies as validated.

A p2p soundclound is also fundamentally different to cycle.js, cycle.js is a classic open source project (because it's users are also devs), and p2p-music is exactly the sort of thing which is much more successful as a business (that later dies or turns evil) I'm just saying, I guess, that funding something like this which is open source is an unsurveyed swamp, there could be some hard ground in there but we don't know. you could be right, I could be right, both or neither could be right.

but here is what I do believe: that to cross into mainstream apps, where the majority of users are not devs, they need some way to contribute. Both to get the feeling of contribution, and the feeling that they have some degree of control. This is really a whole omega project called "build a better democracy" but it's still pretty omega if it's restricted to just software development.

When people imagine a "better democracy" they seem to imagine a "peaceful harmoney" but that really isn't what open source looks like. It's more of a rambling chaos... the important thing isn't that nobody ever feels frustrated, it's that they feel frustrated, then they are able to fix the cause, which makes them feel more satisified than if they never felt frustrated.

@substack I still have the domain, so I'll put it on letsencrypt. Is there an interesting candidate project that would like to use it?

@andrestaltz concluding, I think we actually agree - just getting points out and into the same vocabularily.


@andrestaltz ps, minor niggle: distinction between "property" and "possession"

programmers own system ideas as property

Property requires a paperwork & state enforcement (houses, car registration) possession is stuff you just have. So patents are property, but system ideas are closer to possession. You have access to the system ideas by virtue of your programming skills.


@dominic I'm thinking a project for a web-based p2p creative suite: 3d modeling, 2d flash-style graphics editor, video and audio editing. The tools would be built out separately but would interoperate well with each other.

I'm also thinking of using this project to build out more of the peermaps stack, building it out incrementally until it can do everything arcgis can do (and more!)


@substack wow sounds awesome - also @jolyon is trying to encourage me to write a 3d CAD for cnc, etc... it is on the todo list, but I'm more commited to ssb for now.


You really need to a CC processor with recurring payments in order to raise a non-trivial amount of donations. Cryptocurrency market share is not large enough ( unless you are doing an ICO ).

Simply not enough people with crypto are willing to fund such a thing without a potential financial return.


You could like at something like Patreon as a model of this working.

I'm not a fan of Patreon, but it's successfully raising millions of dollars every month for thousands of creators.


In order to move forward on this topic, I'd like to request a vote.

If we can unanimously agree that we want to raise funds as a group, we can move the conversation forward to determining how this would actually be done.

I vote: Yes, we should collectively try to crowdfund development.



I am not a dev, but I am emotionally invested in a new way to share music that is fair and empowering to the artists. Recurring payments for this project, in any form, would be a tangible way for me to do so. I really the idea of investing in certain concepts or features--it makes the relationship between wishful fan and developer more easy to understand.

I also agree with @dominic: for this to be used by enough "mainstream" people- so that it can grow to enough of a size that the discovery aspect feels legitimately exciting-- there'll need to be ways for non tech folk to contribute and make it their own. If they are using peer 2 peer technology, then they will want to feel like they are a peer.

I would love to help with the research aspect of this. I have a decent amount of friends who are in bands, work in the music industry, or run record labels. I would be interested to know the ways they share music and connect to people now that feels good, the ways where it feels rotten, and what they'd want out of a new model. It'd be fascinating to discuss what an independent label would look like in a decentralized model, or how the punk model of supporting a scene could translate into a purely digital space.

In a similar vein, I propose having a ssb channel that discusses p2p music models, that is not tied to a thread about soundcloud collapsing. This thread is amazing, but we are now discussing something far grander than the original topic. And by having this convo attached to soundcloud, it positions the discussion as one about how to replace or improve a single app using new tech. This feels limited, when we are discussing a way to improve the entire culture in general.

I propose #punk2punk or #music-futurism ! But I could also be wrong!


@zach! haha. I hope this eventually does lead to something important, and then this thread is historically important and thus immortalizes my absurd playlist. Now that you have suggested taking the thread elsewhere I feel I can say that without jinxing it! <3 #punk2punk ! This name just stuck. definitely the codename for this project.

@marak I'm :+1: but I feel it doesn't actually need to be a vote, what is needed is a team who really wants to do it, once you have that you don't need anyone else's permission. There will be need to be some people who understand the space, you'll need a hustler, and a product person, who can refine all the details. My personality doesn't suit that, but @matt and @paul did that great. However it sounds like matt feels he is already over committed.

Eitherway, I'm gonna keep working on making ssb more scalable - this which supports punk2punk, and anything else built on ssb!


Thanks @substack and @dominic for exposing an opposing opinion with respect, I think it actually changed my mind a bit :)

Specially this

this donation model also creates anxiety to be working on the nebulous things that people are donating for you to be working on

because recurring donations may work well for a project that has a larger amount of tasks than budget currently covers, but when you have the opposite, it's basically dead money which you don't dare taking for free and which causes anxiety to both parties.

Also what @dominic said, (paraphrased by me):

It's a product, not an open source library

We need to find a way to involve users of a product. I'm not sure what should the solution be, but I think we need to keep poking this problem until we figure it out. Two things came to mind as inspiration:

Here's an example how Kiva works. A farmer asks for investments for a specific project (think... agile sprint), and people crowdfund that in Kickstarter-style. Once enough people invest, the transaction happens. After a couple of months, the farmer pays you back, and you're back to square one: use that money and invest into someone else on Kiva. If the investment doesn't work out, oh well, then it was a donation, no biggie. :)

I feel like that model looks like something we could adopt and adapt. And I'm not talking about the investments part. If you squint and blur that model from the investor's perspective, it's:

1) choose a project/sprint
2) put money OR re-allocate money which was already previously put
3) wait
4) see results
5) goto (1)

The reallocation possibility in point (2) makes it possible to squeeze in recurring payments there. I feel it's important, because I wouldn't interact so much in Kiva if it weren't for the fact I don't have to stick out my credit card every single time. Kiva doesn't have recurring payments, but it sort of emulates that feeling because you have an indefinite amount of your money flowing into it.


Also, for some context, my comments on this thread were considering a funding to SSBC and/or the MMMMM initiative, even though I know originally this thread was about funding a Soundcloud alternative.


Notice this conversation is diverging (or expanding to cover wider domain). I want to explore these things because I think there are some rich questions about OSS + livelihood in here.

AND I'd like to respect the energy @Marak is offering to put into this, and recall that he asked a question:

If we can unanimously agree that we want to raise funds as a group, we can move the conversation forward to determining how this would actually be done.

My answer: I'm open to fundraising being done, AND I'm not currently up for doing the work of launching an idea. I'd help and would love to do paid work if it took off though.

My hunch is that we don't have anyone who would answer "yes I want to launch that and will commit to building the core of it" (at least not for a month or two). Am I wrong?


to be more clear - I think this would need someone fairly senior and familiar with the whole stack. I'm not familiar enough with the stack to be a lead.


@mixmix I have to disagree that we need something familiar with the whole stack, we just need someone with a vision of what it should feel like and a burning desire to make it real.

They'll soon become familiar with the stack if they have that!

Right now, the top candidates are @Matt (after two months?) and/or @marak


This has been a really good conversation. We went off a few tangents, but everyone's input and feedback have been productive and insightful. I see that we all share similar beliefs here. Some of us are more idealistic, others are more pragmatic.

I'm going to take the initiative and try to crowdfund this idea for a p2p Soundcloud. Open Collective seems to be the path of least resistance. I'm already in communication with their founders. I've just now reached out to @Matt privately to see if we can collaborate on branding efforts in order to not potentially split the existing Ferment community.

I'm willing to publicly spearhead this new initiative ( which could be a risk to my career ). I'm putting a lot of faith into the underlying technology of SSB, but I believe in the people here, so I am willing to take that risk. I'll be gathering marketing materials over the next days and will be posting updates here.

Since everything will be transparent, there will be real opportunity for other open-source developers here to be compensated for their work ( some of which will be related to SSB ). I'm very excited at the prospect of building a p2p SoundCloud, as well helping fund SSB development.


Great news @Marak. Don't worry too much about career risk. A lot of things that we think are dangerous are in fact quite recoverable. And I don't see that risk, actually. I think if you stagnate and become boring, you are less attractive in the job market. This project should at least boost your career. I can give a short story about that:

I wanted to get a job just after graduating. I applied for the same company where I had previously gotten a job, and they interviewed me a second time. It was basically just a formality. But in the interview, somehow we got stuck on one question about how to carry out customer interactions (the job was for junior developer/consultant). A few days after that I received an email telling me I wasn't accepted for the job. That crushed me for a few days, until I noticed I had a lot of savings and I didn't need a job. So I noticed I could finally try out a startup of my own using those savings, and that's what I did. 1 month after I started that startup, I met the same job interviewer guy in a networking party, and he was double keen on hiring me, probably because he noticed some entrepreneurial traits he hadn't seen in the interview. By then, it was too late, I already was quite confident and excited about the startup. PS: I also turned down another job, at Rovio (Angry Birds maker), to stay with my startup.

A lot of things in life are automatic, they happen by default. Bringing things into existence are not automatic. The system/society is coded to keep the status quo going on indefinitely. People expect your life to be: birth, education, job, promotion, retirement, with little bits of vanity and entertainment sprinkled here and there. In order to make your vision come true, you gotta hack the system and make it work for you. It's not going to feel natural. It's like the Truman Show, you're guided only by your gut feeling that keeps you going.


hey @marak that's really exciting. One of the things I've loved about this community over the last year and a half is how open and supportive it is. TL;DR we got your back.

We've got contacts in Open Collective too if that's any help - @Alanna interviews communities using it and writes blogposts.

@Matt I think in terms of the brand and community, it would be interesting to consider gifting the name and vibe. I tihnk we all want to see this thing succeed, and having it be related to your existing story would be a nice help for it. If you want to make your own thing in the future, I think you can always make a ferment-next or we can work together on a new name ... maybe bring back SoundKraut!!


Nice! We have a designer who is willing to help from the Reddit thread I posted last week. I'm currently communicating with them over email and they are going to help design a new landing page for the project.

I'll be putting together a feature list and trying to lock down our new branding in the next few days. I'm hoping to have a new landing page up and running within a week


I'm not a dev, but still happy to help with hosting, running servers and anything else that's necessary. I don't have any experience with SSB or react, but I can program in PHP and Java so should be able to pick up a new language reasonably quickly - especially a Javascript based one.

I have good quality website hosting available if you need it as well. I think this project is fantastic and even though I'm not exactly going to be the lead programmer, I definitely want to see it succeed.


Just got the first iteration of designs from the designer for the new site. Looking pretty good for now. Somewhat of a template, but I think he's going to customize it a bit more.

Is there anyone here who is good at After Effects or similar? It might help if we have a couple of simple animations or custom images.


It's happening:

The word is starting to spread. People are starting to understand how defunct this business model is. The time to move is now! :-)


@andrestaltz sorry for the slow reply, but just wanted to chime in and say Open Collective is currently working on custom sponsorship tiers/rewards, so collectives will be able to set funding goals or offer specific things in return for contributions. Could be "build this requested feature" or "send you a t-shirt" or "10 hours of custom support from our team" etc. I expect it will be totally different stuff for every collective, and many will want to experiment and see what works.

Very interesting to consider the intersection of transactional exchange with the indirect reciprocity nature of peer production networks. However I don't think transactional=bad necessarily, since we see it working quite effectively in crowdfunding psychology, and also there are a lot of entities out there who simply cannot give money without specifying what it's for (companies have to account for everything). Just like with everything, we need to hack on APIs between the P2P world and the legacy systems in this area.


@substack sorry this response is weeks after the fact, but you might be interested to know that the feature currently being worked on for Open Collective is "custom tiers", which essentially means collectives will be able to define any rewards or goals they want, which backers can specifically fund. One use case could be a specific development milestone or iteration cycle. Others will use them for event tickets, t-shirts, sponsorship deals, advertising arrangements, consulting/support hours, etc. Payments can be one-off or recurring, again up to the collective to define and the backer to pick what suits them.

I expect that collectives will surprise us by being quite diverse and creative with the different things they define. For some communities, it makes sense to have specified, more transactional exchanges. For others, it pays to be a lot more indirect. This has been a much-requested feature from OC users, and it not existing until now has been an issue of dev capacity not a philosophical or product decision (we only have one dev right now on the team). Since OC is open source, I hope people see it as potential to create their ideal approach to money for their projects, since if it doesn't work quite how you want it to you can always build the thing you want into it yourself.


Oh, woops the above two messages are me saying the same thing twice - didn't realise this was part of the same thread. Patchwork is confusing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I've had the same issue a couple of times with nested threads. I think it's being worked on.


What if there was a huge backlog, with a unique bitcoin address for each item, prioritised according to the total value given for each item.

We'd still need trust in the developers – to care about the backlog priority order, and to handle duplicates fairly – but that's inevitable when you pay someone to make something that doesn't exist yet.


@Greg K Nicholson that is pretty close to how feedopensource worked. (the features where grouped into iterations, then those where funded - idea being that developers and supporters needed to negioate what needs to be done, but for everyone to have a way to influence the direction)

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