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@teq
Voted Laniyuk and I managed to cobble together a recording even though the tech g
@hoodownr
Voted Oh, I see how it is really similar! I have had a conversation with [@peg](@
@peg
Voted Oh, I see how it is really similar! I have had a conversation with [@peg](@
@Powersource
Voted Oh, I see how it is really similar! I have had a conversation with [@peg](@
@Martin Heidegger
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Oh, I see how it is really similar! I have had a conversation with @peg about dark crystal on Feb. 21, way after we started with our effort around consento. Our effort and approach - as @Powersource may have noticed - is mostly focussed on trust & user interfaces, but in general the ideas are very similar. I guess I should be less shy about our approach and share more here :flushed:

@Powersource
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

@Martin Heidegger This is the interview I mentioned :)

@w
Voted Thanks Dan, very much appreciated. Trust, trust is a strange thing.
@w
Voted > [@sdtsui](@QlIPgH9CFvNhTL9Mj35Gu/Y+YaHJvS7rXf+3sy8elGs=.ed25519) "I’d be
@w
Voted His point on attack vectors: institutionsobstensibly with protection of the
@w
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@habitatm45
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

@sdtsui "I’d be curious to hear what he thinks of just giving a lawyer a shard? Isn’t that the whole point of this. :smiley:
Perhaps would create incentives for a new breed of legal professionals to exist… "

Yeah, that's a good question. We can add it to the list for the next time we chat. Next time I plan not to be wheeling from jetlag ;)

@kyo-dan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

His point on attack vectors: institutionsobstensibly with protection of the law, lawyers with client-attorney protections, vs $5 wrench attacks when you're held hostage.

I'd be curious to hear what he thinks of just giving a lawyer a shard? Isn't that the whole point of this. :)
Perhaps would create incentives for a new breed of legal professionals to exist..

@kyo-dan
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@w
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@cblgh
Voted Laniyuk and I managed to cobble together a recording even though the tech g
@Rich
Voted Laniyuk and I managed to cobble together a recording even though the tech g
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@interfect
Voted Laniyuk and I managed to cobble together a recording even though the tech g
@Reed Garnett
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@benhylau
Voted My personal wish is for whatever we build to be as littie impositive as we
@benhylau
Voted Knowing this is in some sense an unfair request: I want a decol catchphrase
@benhylau
Voted ## Why is this conversation needed? Scuttlebutt has struck me as a space
@Luandro
Voted Laniyuk and I managed to cobble together a recording even though the tech g
@Dan Hassan
Re: %PG6jv+e8b

Laniyuk and I managed to cobble together a recording even though the tech gnomes seemed to be against us and the automagic was sparse...

Once we have post-produced we're going to listen and then hopefully release.

@jnoh
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@Luandro
Voted My personal wish is for whatever we build to be as littie impositive as we
@Zenna
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@Marco
Voted My personal wish is for whatever we build to be as littie impositive as we
@mikey
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@NicoPace
Re: %PG6jv+e8b

My personal wish is for whatever we build to be as littie impositive as we can.
Imposition can come in different shapes and sizes: textual communication like this can be seen as a constraint for some communities, or the post/comments approach... but maybe less about that and more about a space where communities can organize and co-inhabit the space without stepping over each other would enable a space where then a conversation around how things work can arise.
Also, a space where this conversation can be a thread that is alive perpetually... that we don't settle but keep asking that question and finding new answers in the process... because the capacity to articulate or think of possibilities is something that is developed through time: I facilitated a space in within one of the workshops I gave in relation of owning the technology the hacker way, for people that were not coders/hackers, and it was so difficult to create that bridge... so we need to keep the question open so answers can keep coming...

@NicoPace
Voted ## Why is this conversation needed? Scuttlebutt has struck me as a space
@teq
Voted Knowing this is in some sense an unfair request: I want a decol catchphrase
@teq
Voted Here is another podcast where Laniyuk has spoken in and around this theme:
@teq
Voted ## Why is this conversation needed? Scuttlebutt has struck me as a space
@teq
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@ike
Voted Knowing this is in some sense an unfair request: I want a decol catchphrase
@blaine
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@Luandro
Voted ## Why is this conversation needed? Scuttlebutt has struck me as a space
@Luandro
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@mix
Re: %PG6jv+e8b

cc @alanna (here's @Laniyuk)

@ansuz
Voted ## Why is this conversation needed? Scuttlebutt has struck me as a space
@ansuz
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@elavoie
Voted ## Why is this conversation needed? Scuttlebutt has struck me as a space
@Rich
Re: %PG6jv+e8b

Knowing this is in some sense an unfair request: I want a decol catchphrase that fits ssb. A memetic one-liner that punctures the cypherutopian wishful thinking and focusses the attention in the right place.

What is the connection between decolonisation and decentralisation?

It's very common for disintermediation tech to be framed as liberation tech. However if you ask any colonised people what obstacles do they face to liberation, I would guess that "decentralised media production" and "distributed ledgers" etc. are reasonably low on the list of priorities.

To date, most tech projects have started with the most privileged people and asked them "how do you think we can share power more equitably?"

I feel the SSB community yearning for a different approach. Maybe it is "people who are more marginalised have more expertise in how power is centralised and decentralised." Something like that.

@benhylau
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@ike
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@rabble
Voted # Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with [@Laniyuk](@9aHOVuS5Y8
@w
Voted ## Why is this conversation needed? Scuttlebutt has struck me as a space
@Dan Hassan
Re: %PG6jv+e8b

Here is another podcast where Laniyuk has spoken in and around this theme:

https://www.mixcloud.com/girlsradiooffensive/mon-22-january-conversations-with-laniyuk-about-decolonising-sexuality-and-gender-more/

If you're interested in more of the background to the processes in Australia then you might check out:

@Dan Hassan
Re: %PG6jv+e8b

Why is this conversation needed?

Scuttlebutt has struck me as a space which is aware that it has a project genesis story very similar to many technical and open source projects - those around at the start are often highly educated, often men, often white. There is nothing unusual in this story. The question which those arriving from outside that narrow band of human experience is "To what degree has that effected the culture / direction and Ethics"... here's an example:

ethereum-frontier.png

Picture from coindesk

image caption: this is a screenshot from a blockchain focused online new site called coindesk. A journalist called Grace Caffyn is reporting on the release of Ethereum. The title is "Ethereum Launches Long-Awaited Decentralized App Network". This title is set on a background featuring 5 seemingly hetcis-men - one of them is the founder Vitalik Buterin who holds a mic. The piece starts with an image with the Ethereum Logo. It is a horizon scene in what looks to be a desert - it could be like the "Wild West" of Northern America or Australia. There is the Ethereum logo (which is like two pyramids, one on top of the other to make a diamond) with the words (capitalised) "Ethereum Frontier Release, A Safe Decentralized Software Platform" the word safe is crossed out

Cypherspace is a new realm - but what will happen there if we bring our old imaginaries of Pioneers, Frontiers, Adventuring there? Where have we seen this before? Whilst the Ethereum image shows a pristeen landscape with no people, which might be true of Cypherspace - the analogue version of Colonisation, pioneer and frontier-ism has a bloody and genocidal and ongoing history and present.

If we truly are building a better future with people from around the globe in mind then conversations are Decolonisation seem like an integral practice to examine which Values, Ethics and Practices we bring with us from Cypber -> Cypher.

During the lightning talks on the Monday at Scuttlecamp Laniyuk leant over to me and asked "What's solarpunk?". My quick hushed answer was "Cyberpunk tends to be very dystopic, Solarpunk is trying to envision more positive acheivable futures than the dystopias of Cyberpunk". Without missing a beat Laniyuk whispered "Yeah - us Indigenous folx know a thing or two about living in a Dystopia".

One of the reflections that Laniyuk communicated to me after the event was looking back at this roll of paper and wondering what it would look like to have Indigenous, People of Colour, Gender diverse and Women at the head of the roll. How would things look different. How would they be different?

Request for your questions or impressions

We'll be speaking in about 5 days time. Is there anything that you would like to ask, hear about or other comments?


cc those who have publicly stated they attended the session at scuttlecamp: @Teq @keks @Emmi

cc those from handshake council: @elavoie @andrestaltz @Teq @Luandro @Nico @zelf @Zach @Angelica @cinnamon @dinosaur @elavoie

tags: #handshake-council #decolonisation #scuttlecamp

@Dan Hassan

Decolonisation and Cypherspace a conversation with @Laniyuk

scuttlebutt-history-scuttlecamp-decolonisation.jpeg

Picture by Laniyuk taking during the opening day of Scuttle Camp

image caption: a picture from someone's (Laniyuk's) perspective. they are at the end of a long piece of paper which has been rolled out the full length of a long room. the ceiling is the inside of the roof with wooden beams. you see a woodburning chimney shoot up to the ceiling. there are two ceiling hanging lamps which are on. at the far end of the picture are primarily white/passing cis men and then gradually as you come more towards the person taking the picture there are more women/gender diverse folx, some people of colour. all of the people in view are participants of the scuttlebutt network in some shape or form

Backstory

After hearing Laniyuk on 3CR (3 Community Radio) in #narrm I reached out on the gut feeling that there might be some overlap in interests which we could potentially work around. 7 months later we'd built enough of a shared story that it made sense to suggest to the #scuttle-fest crew that Laniyuk would be a good person to sponsor to come to Scuttle Camp One.

At Scuttle Camp she ran a session called Decolonising Space which many found quite impactful. But it wasn't document / recorded.

During the Handshake Council meeting members of the Council were interested to hear more about the session so I said I'd reach out to Laniyuk to see if she would be open to a Local Gossip episode speaking in and around this theme.

@tsu
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
@PinkMoff
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
@cel
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@mycognosist
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

Thanks @Rich! That's really encouraging to hear and brings me lots of good feels. I feel strongly that decentering the humyn is vital work for the 21st Century - keen to keep sharing experimental results as I skip and trip my way through the labyrinth :smile_cat:

@w
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
@Dan Hassan
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

@dinosaur ok... you got more than you asked for :)

/keybase/private/danielsan,dinosaur

@mikey
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

@dan hassan i think i only need the key, according to the dat docs i can clone the dat archive and import the key.

@Dan Hassan
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

@dinosaur ... hmmm. I am not sure if it is only the key that you need or a full directory of stuff.

Here is the manual process: https://github.com/beakerbrowser/beaker/issues/815

@dinosaur what is you're prefered way of sharing a precious directory? are you set up on keybase? I can share it through the KBFS?

@darius
Voted > [@darius](@VRAbRs/uMR2qdfiRNx2+1XRXePjJ75suZAmhGYZihks=.ed25519) "I am lo
@cblgh
Voted > [@darius](@VRAbRs/uMR2qdfiRNx2+1XRXePjJ75suZAmhGYZihks=.ed25519) "I am lo
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@Dan Hassan
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

@darius "I am looking forward to the day when we finally get multi-writer support in dat (so, multiple authors editing one dat)."

agree! it's going to be super impactful in the DAT realm. Equivalent to private groups in the ssb realm i feel...

@darius
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

I am looking forward to the day when we finally get multi-writer support in dat (so, multiple authors editing one dat).

@Dan Hassan
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

the main thing that we want to avoid at this point is forking the dat feed? or the dat equivalent of a forked feed ala ssb

@Dan Hassan
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

@dinosaur oooooh! We're at the edges :-D

beaker browser is still single writer so far as I know...

https://ar.al/2018/08/04/multiwriter-dat-could-power-the-next-web/

so I was thinking that we could share the privatekey to a main driver (which might be the travis). We could also back up the private key with dark crystal.

whatevers clever :)

figured out where the private keys live here:

https://github.com/beakerbrowser/beaker/issues/1170

@bobhaugen
Voted > I am no longer a bottle neck! this is a great step, but i think there's
@mikey
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

I am no longer a bottle neck!

this is a great step, but i think there's a remaining bottleneck: now anyone in the ssbc can update the content, but only you @dan hassan can publish to dat://the-local-gossip-index.hashbase.io/

as far as i understand, publishing to a dat site requires having the secret key, which only you as the original author has. is it possible for you to share your secret key with some localhosts? with this secret key, i might be able to setup a Travis CI build pipeline that could automatically publish for us.

:heart:

@Lynn Foster
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@cblgh
Voted # The Local Gossip Index Repo moved to SSBC ![microbial-ecology-10-638.jpg
@Ryan
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@Powersource
Voted # The Local Gossip Index Repo moved to SSBC ![microbial-ecology-10-638.jpg
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@Luandro
Voted will add to index ASAP. also reminds me I need to move TLG index site to ow
@Luandro
Voted this is beautiful
@Rich
Voted # The Local Gossip Index Repo moved to SSBC ![microbial-ecology-10-638.jpg
@Brad
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@buoyantair
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@hoodownr
Voted # The Local Gossip Index Repo moved to SSBC ![microbial-ecology-10-638.jpg
@Dan Hassan
Re: %Zt+xwPUnj

cc: @glyph as you have also localhost :-D

@Dan Hassan

The Local Gossip Index Repo moved to SSBC

microbial-ecology-10-638.jpg

https://github.com/ssbc/the-local-gossip-index

I am no longer a bottle neck! It was really touching that TLG had a presence at #scuttle-camp which I helped with peripherally but did not instigate (props to @dinosaur and @ZachBang + @Powersource for the magic there).

Feels like an appropriate moment to remove myself as the keeper of the index :)

Next step - increase accessibility by moving links to https and then figure out RSS!

@Dan Hassan
Re: %5HNZSRhkZ

Ok, this has been uploaded to the Index :)

@Dan Hassan
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

I finally updated the TLG Index! LOVED THIS EPISODE

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

ping for help with checking the transcription here:

https://hackmd.io/7jlFc7B2TE2MJxgB3z5zOg

many eyes/fingers make lighter work :-D

@Dan Hassan
Re: %607dXSQuO

Hey folx,

Request for help! I have gotten side B transcribed and am seeking help to do a final check of the transcription to double check :) Many eyes/fingers make lighter work

https://hackmd.io/MQrrxyhISbK0UYhva4VHbA

@cblgh
Voted will add to index ASAP. also reminds me I need to move TLG index site to ow
@cblgh
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@bobhaugen
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@bobhaugen
Voted will add to index ASAP. also reminds me I need to move TLG index site to ow
@corlock
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@aramiscd@edgar
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@mikey
Voted will add to index ASAP. also reminds me I need to move TLG index site to ow
@mikey
Voted this is beautiful
@elavoie
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@Rich
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

wow @kieran @mycognosist this is such a sweet conversation, thanks for narrating my house-packing work today, i learned a lot and really appreciated the less-anthropocentric framing you brought with you

I get a similar vibe from some of the For The Wild podcasts, most notably this one: http://forthewild.world/listen/john-seed-on-deep-ecological-identity98

@Dan Hassan
Re: %5HNZSRhkZ

will add to index ASAP. also reminds me I need to move TLG index site to ownership of ssbc so that I am not a bottleneck :-D

also

SUPER LOOKING FORWARD TO LISTENING TO THIS

(yes i meant the capslock)

@Rich
Re: %5HNZSRhkZ

this is beautiful

@schuyler
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@myf
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@teq
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@Rich
Voted _Note to cypher-archaeologists & future localhosts: This episode has been r
@Rich
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@Luandro
Voted hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttl
@mikey

hi friends, here's a new episode of #the-local-gossip recorded from #scuttle-camp! :sunny:

The Local Gossip: Episode 10

Back to the Land :house_with_garden: :seedling:

moinho.jpg

#back-to-the-land #moinho #valueflows #moinho-mesh

@mikey
Voted # Proposal for Peer Podcast (scrycast) Formatting for The Local Gossip In
@Georg
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@Mefi
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
@Mefi
Voted Looking forward to hearing the episode [@glyph](@HEqy940T6uB+T+d9Jaa58aNfRz
@kawaiipunk
Voted Looking forward to hearing the episode [@glyph](@HEqy940T6uB+T+d9Jaa58aNfRz
@viktor
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

@glyph Ah fantastic! Perhaps we should open a thread here and we can have a sort of collective semi-public asynch selected reading of it :mag_right::mushroom:

Yeah I've seen some of Mycologos, not attended anything but I've been to the site a couple of times, cought some of the audio and video featuring Peter online, good stuff!

I actually got my copy of the book straight out of Peters hand almost 3 years ago now. I went to Open Source Ecology for a greenhouse build back in 2016 and Peter was there for a few days to do some demonstration of oyster in bucket cultivation. Was a treat to have some short conversation and I got to buy one of the books he had with him for $50 cash, a little bit of a struggle to fit that 2kg tome in my suitcase for the plane :grinning: It's just been patiently sitting on my bookshelf, waiting for me to take the proper time out to get into it.

That trip back in 2016 was an epic 2 week journey for me, landing in NYC the day before Trumps election and staying until the day after. Recording this episode at Douglas Rushkoffs tiny office outside of the city in the afternoon and then living through the traumatizing shock of that election night in NYC. Definitly an experience of intensity of change, turmoil and possibility that we were moving into right then and are now fully flailing about in.

(I hope I can make it to Helsinki one of these days to catch up with those awesome folks!)

@squicc
Voted Looking forward to hearing the episode [@glyph](@HEqy940T6uB+T+d9Jaa58aNfRz
@viktor
Voted [@Viktor Zaunders](@dJYdaVZEbtfhmSEY4PvGTDVJGADRsYaXwaiokvqTs5o=.ed25519) W
@mycognosist
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

@Viktor Zaunders We are in-sync! I received the same book just after Christmas :smile_cat: I contributed to the Kickstarter campaign back in 2013 but was unable to afford the postage to South Africa (it was more than the price of the book itself). Being in the UK, and considering they now have a publisher / distrubutor here, I was finally able to buy a copy. It was totally worth the wait; just an incredible book! I'm only 25 pages into it and I've already learnt a great deal.

I am really enjoying the poetic writing style. I'll have to wait until I've read the whole thing to be certain but at this point I'd recommend this book over any other - nothing comes close to the depth and breadth of this work.

I recommend checking out Mycologos (if you haven't already). It's essentially an online university / set of courses for all things mycological, created and run by Peter McCoy. They also have a Community Supported Mycoculture (CSM) which I think you and others here might find really interesting and inspiring.

P.s. There is another Myco Hacklab Finland meetup scheduled for Friday, 15th of February 2018, 18:00.

@zerocipher
Voted Looking forward to hearing the episode [@glyph](@HEqy940T6uB+T+d9Jaa58aNfRz
@bundy
Voted Looking forward to hearing the episode [@glyph](@HEqy940T6uB+T+d9Jaa58aNfRz
@viktor
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

Looking forward to hearing the episode @glyph!

I have recently started really digging into this big read!
radical mycology

A very different read from mycelium running but at least as inspiring. A more poetic creation than Stamets but diligently referenced and it really engages my learning! Much recommend! :grinning:

@mycognosist
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

Note to cypher-archaeologists & future localhosts: This episode has been renumbered and is now better referenced as Episode 9 (further info).

@bobhaugen
Voted The information about remediation is.. *amazing*. Thank you @mycognosist &
@mycognosist
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

Thanks so much for listening @noffle! You're going to love Mycelium Running. Another book dealing with remediation - which I haven't read but which is recommended highly by folx I respect - is Earth Repair by Leila Darwish.

@kieran I have some thoughts in relation to your follow-up post; gonna let them ferment for a while longer before sharing.

@David
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@viktor
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@viktor
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@kawaiipunk
Voted I thoroughly enjoyed our talk and feel like we _barely_ scratched the surfa
@cblgh
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
@peg
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
@zerocipher
Voted ![oysters-in-a-jar-ohhh.jpg](&cqn6FZu3uZCSb7+eiAhYcH3ec8fbctd8JCfG8Oe4FSw=.
@Musickiler's mknbarch2
Voted ![oysters-in-a-jar-ohhh.jpg](&cqn6FZu3uZCSb7+eiAhYcH3ec8fbctd8JCfG8Oe4FSw=.
@Musickiler's mknbarch2
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
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@kieran
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

oysters-in-a-jar-ohhh.jpg

1 day later...

@kieran
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

I thoroughly enjoyed our talk and feel like we barely scratched the surface of such a range of fascinating topics @glyph so I can't wait until we do the next one.

The right moment never arose to open this can of worms, though in my head it was dancing around the edges of my consciousness like some cheeky dryad. I've been discussing with family members about the ethics of cultivation. So with my immediate family if focuses around keeping house-plants. We know that plants are intelligent - they engage in social behaviour (and produce a vast array of chemicals which enable them to do so), they clearly act with intention, they know how to solve problems and they arguably have all the sensory capacities of humans and then some. What is the ethical dimension to keeping and caring for houseplants?

I have a pretty magnificent cheese plant (Monstera deliciosa), which is a cutting from the parent plant (we call her the Mothership) who is over 30 years old and lives in the house I grew up in. This plant has been for so long estranged from its natural habitat. Its likely it was a cutting from another parent plant which had never known its homeland. So for several generations this genetic line of cheese plants has been living in houses, in captivity. But there's not really a fair choice as to what to do with them. I value their lives, they bring me joy, they're well cared for, and its beyond practicality to return them to their native habitat in Mexico. There's not much I can do about it, but I do think about whether its fair to propagate them any more than they already have been. I don't know if I have an answer to that. But there's a mutual dependence, in that they bring me joy, and I feed and drink them.

Thats a relatively straight forward ethical dilemma right. Take it to the instance of small-scale fungus cultivation, and I feel better. Fungi like to be propagated, they spread their spores far and wide, and the more you can encourage them to fruit, the better they will propagate. And I cultivate Oyster mushrooms, which are native, so there is a genuine possibility that the mushrooms I grow will enable dead wood in my area to be colonised by their spores. But when we begin extracting these creatures out of their native environment in order to fulfil a task that will better serve humans and might help prevent / at least slow down the speed of ecosystem collapse. For example growing Quorn. Or training fungi to eat cigarette butts. Its a bit more on the edge of 'whats okay' from an ethical perspective, if we recognise these creatures are sentient. Ultimately we still are dictating their opportunities in many senses when they're in closed systems as opposed to open, so we get to frame the choices they get to make and steer their evolution. I guess a part of me wants to minimise the impact I have on the world, but the reality is we cannot estrange ourselves or abstract ourselves, if I kick on a dandelion by accident, I'm spreading its seed, and actually doing exactly what it wants. Observation and science here are the tools we have at our disposal to be able to decide when its okay to intervene and when its not. I guess I'm making a case for ethical scientific practice.

The third case is where it gets really hairy. I'm building an aquaponics system (slowly mind) and want to keep and cultivate fish and plants as a closed-loop system. And I can see that as a democratised, commons-based community food solution, such systems could be leveraged to really alleviate suffering planet wide - allow river and sea fish-stocks to stabilise and restore balance to ecosystems, to feed humans who are going hungry as drought in certain parts of the world increases. And they can subvert the meat industry, allow people to eat healthy, locally and reliably produced with accountability. This in my mind can even form a cohesive component of building a post-capitalist economy / ecology. And yet part of me feels hesitant. I feel for the fish I want to keep in a 1000L tank. I worry about how I would feel if I grew up in a large white room with 50 other humans and never got the chance to leave. But then I'm anthropomorphising those. How can I know or understand what its like in the body it inhabits along with its ancestral behavioural conditioning?

Argh this stuff is so complex. I guess as long as we try to engage in this stuff with an awareness of suffering, ultimately we have to make decisions in order to balance the scales. It feels like we have too much power. My rational brain builds an answer to such ethical dilemmas / justifies my want to make things better with the 'greater good' argument. But my heart center, my emotional response, is to want to release the fish into the river, to take the cheese plant back to Mexico.

So I guess the question that comes here is, how can we as humans devise symbiotic / generative relationships, that we know to be mutually beneficial (rather than fooling ourselves they are for our own sake) with other species so as to build and maintain healthy and sustainable ecosystems? What does that mean for the future of [phyto/myco]remediation, sustainable food, sustainable building and land design, argiculture, 'rewilding'?

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@mycognosist
Re: %+s2oKiBKT

@noffle I think you might enjoy this one :green_apple:

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@kawaiipunk
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
@Marco
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
@Murkas
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@hoodownr
Voted ## The Local Gossip: Episode 8 ### Fungi, Forests & Friends ![gray oyster
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@mycognosist

The Local Gossip: Episode 8

Fungi, Forests & Friends

gray oyster mushrooms growing from jar
Several gray oyster mushrooms (Pleurotus ostreatus) growing from myceliated coffee grounds in a glass jar. The glass jar is located on a windowsill and has a clamp-down glass lid which is open in the photo.

Alrighty folx, here ya go. Big thanks to @kieran for joining me on this episode! It was a lot of fun to share stories, knowledge and dreams for the future. Thanks as well to @dan hassan for applying his connector magic to great effect. The intro track is one of 52 (!) created by @cblgh during 2018 (I hope it's OK that I used your track @cblgh - it felt like a good fit).

The conversation ambles through a forest of fungal ideas, touching on topics as diverse as psychedelics and psilocybin mushrooms, peer-based knowledge transfer, the history of cities, remediation and cultivation. We hope you'll enjoy it as much as we did! Feel free to share far and wide.

dat://tlg-hyphal-fusion.hashbase.io
dat://08e991809de92c4b8e57c39589e37713765820a77e4cf248a6e87b459190855a/
https://tlg-hyphal-fusion.hashbase.io/

Corrections

I do my very best to share accurate information but I made several mistakes in this one. Most notably, I incorrectly conflate coal and oil (petroleum). This part of the conversation starts around 44:45. While lignin did indeed play a role in coal formation, and it seems likely that fungal degradation of lignin was responsible for dramatically slowing this process, the formation process for petroleum (oil) is different - and oil did not come from lignin. My sincerest apologies! Two relevant links: White Rot Fungi Slowed Coal Formation and The Petroleum Problem.

#myco #permaculture

@teq
Voted Thanks for the transcript. Was really nice reading through as I never gotte
@teq
Voted Dan: When I asked that – I kind of – that quote that I started off with, wa
@teq
Voted I have gone ahead and gotten this episode transcribed by the [TypeOlogy Coo
@teq
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@teq
Voted [@manni](@JSrjjJja0t6v2Lb8wQN3TPecpPMrdcOcOISsDe68dpA=.ed25519) it was actu
@teq
Voted Oh I heard about this service too and thought it sounded awesome! I'm plodd
@teq
Voted [@zeroz](@24Qj8pST0woTLo0zDqFDHZqIVPENnwiBeZ+3D3Sx0l8=.ed25519) not sure wh
@teq
Voted # Transcribing The Local Gossip Episodes ## A Potential Way of Spending s
@mu
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@Powersource
Voted I'd love to hang out and represent the Scandiverse too, if you folx are up
@viktor
Re: %MdrCUXucp

I'd love to hang out and represent the Scandiverse too, if you folx are up for that :smiley:

@Powersource
Voted [@zelf](@3ZeNUiYQZisGC6PLf3R+u2s5avtxLsXC66xuK41e6Zk=.ed25519) i've been us
@cblgh
Voted Woaaah! This is super coool! Thank you [@dan hassan](@NeB4q4Hy9IiMxs5L08oev
@cblgh
Voted [@Zenna](@3ZeNUiYQZisGC6PLf3R+u2s5avtxLsXC66xuK41e6Zk=.ed25519) [@cblgh](@C
@Zenna
Re: %MdrCUXucp

Woaaah! This is super coool! Thank you @dan hassan ! :star2: :star2: :star2:

Alright! I've taken notes and we will try it out... I'm hoping to convince @Jacob and @Alex to do it before our japan trip {poke:poke} haha ;D

@Zenna
Voted [@zelf](@3ZeNUiYQZisGC6PLf3R+u2s5avtxLsXC66xuK41e6Zk=.ed25519) i've been us
@Dan Hassan
Re: %MdrCUXucp

@zelf i've been using an online tool (i can send you the login credentials in a DM) called zencastr which rich suggested.

  • each person get's a link
  • service requests access to each persons local microphone
  • when the host presses record each person is recorded
  • when the host presses stop record each persons browser uploads the local recording to the podcast services servers
  • once all the wav's have been uploaded (mp3's are also uploaded) then you can click a button to "post-produce" which puts all the tracks together in one track
  • for jingles you can upload the music you like and then click a button in the interface to play it at the beginning and the end.

PROTIP:

  • remember to press record if you are the localhost! more than one of us have forgotten to over time
  • remember to ask everyone to leave their browser window open until their recording has been uploaded to the zencastr servers.

annecdotally I have found the recording which went over 60 mins got audio drift (the ep. with zach, angelica and me) so by the end there is weird mismatch in my track and their track which makes me sound like I can hear the future.

ofc you can also do all this manually. I tried to do it manually with mumble with a call between me, noffle and cel but TBH I found that too hard AND to be a localhost at the same time (though we did have other technical issues on that call).

@Rich
Voted Let's make a S C A N D I V E R S E podcast! <3 <3 there's a few ppl already
@Zenna
Re: %MdrCUXucp

no techskills required as it's all automated in the browser then main work comes in coordinating with the peers you'll be speaking with. in some cases I have found this means needing to spend some time getting to know eachother off-air etc.

So if we're gonna try out a local gossip one first, @dan hassan how do you recommend us going about's? :sparkles:

@Powersource
Voted Let's make a S C A N D I V E R S E podcast! <3 <3 there's a few ppl already
@Zenna
Re: %MdrCUXucp

Let's make a S C A N D I V E R S E podcast! <3 <3 there's a few ppl already around who might be down to talk :))

@Powersource
Voted I also had a friend of mine show me how to edit episodes... maybe [@Alex](@
@Powersource
Voted [@Jacob](@Vz6v3xKpzViiTM/GAe+hKkACZSqrErQQZgv4iqQxEn8=.ed25519) Yes! Let's
@Zenna
Re: %MdrCUXucp

I also had a friend of mine show me how to edit episodes... maybe @Alex can make a jingle and some background music we can fade between and we can get goiiing! :cherry_blossom:

@Zenna
Re: %MdrCUXucp

@Jacob Yes! Let's dooo ittttt! I found a good mic that's easy to travel with too :)

@Zenna
Voted [@Zenna](@3ZeNUiYQZisGC6PLf3R+u2s5avtxLsXC66xuK41e6Zk=.ed25519) [@cblgh](@C
@Powersource
Re: %MdrCUXucp

@Zenna @cblgh were we going to make an episode? :D seems like a good time to make one :)

@Powersource
Voted # Localhosts sought :green_heart: ![cat with foil ](&6YK/qdjU9Ft5/Ta0z3jJH
@Lando
Voted # Localhosts sought :green_heart: ![cat with foil ](&6YK/qdjU9Ft5/Ta0z3jJH
@Dan Hassan

Localhosts sought :green_heart:

cat with foil

is there anyone out there who would like to try their hand at localhosting an episode?

i am here to help and support that to happen! DM's open within my hop range!

no techskills required as it's all automated in the browser then main work comes in coordinating with the peers you'll be speaking with. in some cases I have found this means needing to spend some time getting to know eachother off-air etc.

i should also note i am a total n00b at all this. i listen to LOADS of podcasts but had never produced anything prior to these experiences so most of my support will come in the form of cheerleading and mutual aid :-D

@Lando
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@Rich
Re: %nQiDw2iO/

@dan hassan oh yeah my widget was being too clever and put a rest time after you booked the first slot. I replied with a single booking

@teq
Voted cool beans! you can [book me here](https://calendly.com/richarddbartlett).
@teq
Voted fork from %qjJtZfxV26wu+0KVQ+pULg6gXf0jRIhCuefriutjsKo=.sha256 [@rich](@3r
@Dan Hassan
Re: %nQiDw2iO/

@dick tried to book too in a row, but not sure I was successful. lemme know!

@Rich
Re: %nQiDw2iO/

cool beans! you can book me here. grab 2 slots so we are not compressed. next week is pretty chill, then life gets intense til mid March by which point i will be in EU

@Rich
Voted fork from %qjJtZfxV26wu+0KVQ+pULg6gXf0jRIhCuefriutjsKo=.sha256 [@rich](@3r
@Dan Hassan

fork from %qjJtZfx...

@rich

@dan hassan

this sounds like a ripe topic for a #the-local-gossip episode with a localhost who isn't me, hint hint.

FWIW: I'm not familiar enough with localhost norms to pick up hints about how to interact with it

lets do an episode together and figure it out! i'd like to play localhost and ask you more about microsolidarity etc. you can then localhost side B & ask me about whatever :)

@Emmi
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

@ktorn "So, what does anyone know? We can all theorize about this or that, but there is no substitute to actually experimenting with something. Worst-case scenario is we learn something."

+1 agree with this sentiment very much. Doing things that we don't know the outcome of seem like as good a use of energy during these times as any.

@ktorn
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

@dan hassan just skimmed the transcript and it reminded me of some of my original reservations with key sharding.

Back then I also tried to provide some ideas for workarounds and basically, like Cory, tried not to discourage the experiment, rather just point out some potential issues.

Now that I had plenty of more time to reflect on it I actually changed my stance on the whole thing. When Satoshi Nakamoto (now famously) posted the Bitcoin whitepaper on the crypography mailing list the initial reaction posts were very discouraging, in the "it cannot work" vein, and these were coming from seasoned cryptographers (which Satoshi seemingly is/was not). What did they know?

So, what does anyone know? We can all theorize about this or that, but there is no substitute to actually experimenting with something. Worst-case scenario is we learn something.

@corlock
Voted I have gone ahead and gotten this episode transcribed by the [TypeOlogy Coo
@corlock
Voted Dan: When I asked that – I kind of – that quote that I started off with, wa
@Anders
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Thanks for the transcript. Was really nice reading through as I never gotten around to listening to it.

@cinnamon
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@Dan Hassan
Re: %607dXSQuO

I am getting a transcription of sides A and B made - will release soon.

@Dan Hassan
Re: %607dXSQuO

it might also be the case this thread looks very different to other people though as folx might be out of my follow range or i might have blocked them... there's no way to say what I see is the same as what others see...

@Dan Hassan
Re: %607dXSQuO

@pes the only thread from that period that I have been able to find is this one

%5Auy35e...

from my reading of it though this might not be the one which anna was referring to as it feels that those contributing to this thread were aiming for harm reduction through trying to highlight the technical limitations of ssb WRT to privacy etc...

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Cory: You know I – I mean I guess what I would like to say is I don’t mean for any of this to be discouraging. You know, often times when we start with an idea it can seem like there are some really big problems that can turn out never to materialise or that have solutions that are also in place. But like part of that idea, part of the process of ideating a new security system is also to think about how it can be hacked and often times the way it can be hacked is the way you make it stronger right, it’s where you discover new and better ways of making the security robust against different kinds of attacks. So yeah; I’m interested in seeing what you guys come up with. I mean I think like maybe taxomising threat models would be a useful next step and just having some like user stories that are based on real things. I mean Mr Cardone, Ed Snowdon; there are a bunch of people out there who have these high-risk environments and also like the opportunistic attacks; the kind of ransom where dumb-dumbs – and what they might do against this kind of thing to.

Dan: That’s all super. Thank you. So we’ve got a residency coming up with Simply Secure folk in Berlin in a couple of weeks time, where I think we’re gonna be running through a bunch of this stuff. So I’m gonna listen back to this, make some notes and then speak to some more people and then go from – go from there.

Cory: Yeah, well good luck with it. It’s been really nice chatting.

Dan: Yes. Hope you have a good day and we can fit some coffee into next week.

Cory: Yeah, that’d be nice. Alright.

Dan: Thanks for making time -

Cory: OK. Nice talking to you. Bye.

[Recording ends 35:42]

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Cory: So let me see if I can make the point that I’m trying to make crisper here. There is a class of counter measures that networks enable, where you relieve someone of the risk of coercion by taking the thing that the coercive force wants and moving it out of their hands, moving it out of the jurisdiction of the person who’s trying to coerce them. And that is a powerful and useful tactic but it has it’s own counter measures. So a good example of this; we have a client here at the Electronic Frontier Foundation who in the court records is called Mr Cardone and he’s an Ethiopian national, he’s a dissonant journalist who lives in exile in Washington DC. And the Ethiopian government bought a zero-day hacking tool to break into his Skype, from a now disgraced and collapsed Italian company called Hackintin. And they broke into his Skype in Washington DC from Addis Abuba and they mined his list of contacts in Addis Abuba; the people who were giving him the material he needed to publish anonymously sourced, devastating reports on corruption in the government and they rounded up all his friends in Addis Abuba and tortured them. And so the technology that giveth the power for someone who is out of harms way to be a proxy or fiduciary for someone who is at risk is also the power for the person at risk to be held hostage to the person who is playing the fiduciary. And there’s two models for how you ally with your fiduciary right; one is through a kind of legal duty and the rule of law, so you have lawyers that you trust and those lawyers are – or a fiduciary of some other kind and they are bound by a code of professional conduct and maybe even given special legal powers like the power to resist certain orders compelling them to show evidence, like an attorney-client privilege. And so you trust them because you trust that the rule of law is intact and that has a weakness in that the rule of law is not always intact and the rule of law is a lot more contingent than we’d like it to be and particularly contingent on the whims of powerful people and that is a trend that is accelerating – in part I think we should note because crypto currency is letting Oligarchs launder money. And then the other model for this is that you have someone you love and trust, who you think would never betray you and you’re not relying on the rule of law, you’re relying on these human factors. But those human factors are the very human factors that you then get turned against you when someone kidnaps your wife or husband or kid or whatever and says tell me what their password is or they’re never getting out of jail. And so they both have their weaknesses like a lot – well I think like all security measures, they have to be deployed against a threat model that correctly assesses what risk you are going to be put to and by whom. And so if you use fiduciaries where the rule of law is weak then you will be exposed and if you used loved ones where, you know, your counter party understands – that the rule of law is strong but your counter party understands that, you know, your friend back in a safe place has no rights as to stop them from torturing you, then you’re also exposed. And so assessing the threat is really important to understanding the counter measure.

Dan: So what’s loud and clear is – This is earlier what you meant by [inaudible 32:10] analysis. So essentially threat modelling, working out specifically what the different constraints are and then working, with those in mind, with the understanding that there’s no such thing as perfect security and…

Cory: Well it’s not that there’s no such thing as perfect security, it’s that security is only ever secure as against an attack right? You can have perfect flood security but it won’t stop your house from burning down and so –

Dan: True.

Cory: And security’s always relative, you know. Like bank robbers are more secure when bank vaults are less secure. So there’s – It is always relative to a person and always relative to the threat that person fears and it’s just – It just doesn’t – Like there isn’t a shadow on Plato’s wall that says ‘security’ over it; there’s only security in context.

Dan: Very true. Cory; as I suspected would happen, my brain’s fully saturated from having bounced this off your brain, which was in part the hope. I know you have loads of calls lined up after this, so I’m kind of – I’m good. Do you have any questions?

Cory: No. This was a really interesting discussion.

Dan: [Inaudible 33:45] Dark Crystal?

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Dan: Yeah, that’s – I’m feeling a lot of things in relation to that. I guess – So one of the things I’m feeling is one; do we know what we’re – So in your simplified example it’s one person. So let’s keep it at one, although it could be ten or whatever -

Cory: Yeah.

Dan: - making it more complex. So the thing is, as you’re passing through the border, you as an individual they’d say what’s the password and you’re like aha I don’t know, I can’t actually tell you. And they’re like; well you wouldn’t just be carrying around this hunk of machinery as a like paperweight, so how is it - So in that scenario we’re assuming it would get to a point where he reveals that there would be someone who could help get that through. And so what’s happening in that instance is you’ve moved from being an individual to being kind of part of a small group of people and what we’re essentially – what I’m hearing you worry about is are people ready to essentially be responsible to each other even in knarly situations.

Cory: Aha.

Dan: And so, to loop back round to kind of the beginning of the Dark Crystal Project. I guess one of the gambits was – it feels like at the heart a lot of the more libertarian end of the spectrum of crypto currencies, is this notion that at the end point of society there is this kind of rational, informed, logical individual and that the price of entry into these systems is that that rational, logical individual is able to keep data secure and yes it’s a hard problem but if someone is kind of, an activated human, then they will be able to figure that out. Now I’m not in that camp of people, I’m more in the camp of people to whom the end point of society isn’t individuals, it’s individuals in relation to other people make up kind of groups of various kind of strengthly-kintted social fabric. And so a part of me feels that probably in terms of technology and data and these types of things, that sounds like – although a thorny problem, maybe one that it’s good for us humans to be thinking about in the times coming ahead; things that make us think about how technology can strengthen and amplify our social fabric and kind of get us to level up in that kind of Walk Away sense.

Cory: Yeah.

Dan: It was really – yeah it was really at the heart of the gambit at the heart of Dark Crystal which was it’s possible to reconfigure the sum of the component parts within crypto currencies in a way that’s more social, that kind of doesn’t amplify alienation in a way I find crypto currencies can tend towards. Rather a way of using technology to strengthen social fabric and part of that is knowing how to weather storms together.

Cory: Aha.

Dan: Cause when I think of Aaron Schwartz, like his footprint isn’t just digital, it’s also the relationships which have carried his memory and kind of mission forward as well. He wasn’t just this brilliant – he wasn’t just a brilliant individual, though he was that. To kind of hear where I’m coming from – So basically what I’m saying TLDR is; yes I agree with your analysis that that is a problem. But I think it’s probably the right type of problem; it’s in the right neighbourhood, in the right direction for us to be figuring out together.

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Dan: They’re – they’re rad. I want to get to know them more. But anyway, so this side project was called Scatter Secrets, which was coming at it from the angle of if you’re trying to move across borders where there’s a probability of your devices being taken from you and you’re trying to bring documents with you, it’s essentially this notion of – it’s called Scatter Secrets I think [inaudible 20:11] but essentially you split those secrets out to people across the border and then reassemble them at the other end. And [inaudible 20:21] within our project is like hey that’s super neat but if you have documents that are worth the trouble of identifying who those six people are, that’s not great news.

Cory: Yeah.

Dan: So I guess these are questions similar to what happened kind of post-modem; is he would initially have reached out to Glenn Romore, then connected out to Nietzsche to see if he could help get [inaudible 20:48] up and running with GPG. The thing is, he couldn’t say: “Oh by the way, if you accept this, you’re gonna implicate yourself in something really big.”

Cory: Yeah.

Dan: And so it’s this thing of, at a smaller scale, how do we build this in a consentful way so that people have time to think this stuff through -

Cory: I think there’s another inverse of that threat model that is worth thinking about. So I as a thought experiment, once proposed that you could create like ten pass phrases for your crypted disc, using just a strong password generator. So they’d just be random hundred and twenty-eight character strings and you would obviously not know any of those strings but you’d have your regular disc-unlocking password that’s just a long password. And the threat – the thing that I was trying to accomplish was you want to go somewhere with your computer and you trust that when you’re not at a border, there’s some rule of law but you also think that when you’re passing through a border the rule of law is suspended. Which, you know it’s a pretty good description of a lot of places, where the rule of law doesn’t apply even when you’re past the border and I think we don’t always know where those places are – I mean that guy who just got hauled into parliament and made to log into his Dropbox account to give up some Facebook documents is an interesting example of how what you might think of as your rights outside of the border are not your rights. But you know, stipulate for the sake of argument, that you could at least call a lawyer and argue about whether or not you have to hand over your password once you’re clear of the border but not was you’re in the border, not while you’re in the border. And you want to get some work done right and so you want to bring your laptop and use it on the plane, you want to use it on the other side. And so you have these ten passwords and you get in a cab to go to the airport and the first password in the list is your memorable password. You type it in and you work all the way to the airport and then you delete the password and now you can’t log into your laptop. You go through customs and you call your room mate and you say: “Tell me what the first encrypted password is.” and you type it in and change it to your memorable password, get on your plane to say Singapore on your way to Australia and get off the plane at Singapore, delete your memorable password again. Now you can’t log into your laptop. Go through customs, buy a smoothie, sit down in the departure lounge and call your friend and say: “Give me password number two.” and then you enter password number two and then you work again on the plane and then when you’re remaining in Sydney, you delete your password, you go through customs, when you get out of customs on the other side, you call your friend and you say unlock it. You do it all in reverse on the way home. And so in theory this works really well because your friend is outside the coerce or force of the state and as long as you’re right about where the state can coerce you, as long as it’s only at borders, then you’re in really good shape. And I mentioned this to a friend, actually the lawyer who’s sitting a hundred yards from me who has my password in case I drop dead and she said: “Oh yeah, they’ll just arrest you and call your friend and they’ll say if you ever want to see Cory again, you’d better give me his password.”. And so this is another way that people can be coerced right? They can be coerced not just by being like put to risk but by being made to decide whether or not you can be a free man right and that’s an incredible conundrum to plunge someone else into non-consensually or even consensually. It’s a very tough thing.

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Cory: OK. So I wonder, you know, as a security measure, how hard it would be if you had a big data set of trusted – of trusted third parties or trusted, you know, fall back people, how hard it would be to figure out who those people were and maybe suborn them and you know, it’s this – cause we have these weird [inaudible 15:38] on the internet that are things like ransom threat – you know, like the half-smart ransom threat model, which is -

Dan: Yes.

Cory: You know, the dumb ransom threat model is I’ll just high-jack anything I can and ask for ransom right. That’s how you get like idiots high-jacking NHS hospitals and asking for three hundred dollars to unhigh-jack them. You know. But the half-smart one is; I have like an opportunistic attack where I can look at a huge data set of leaked accounts or you know, some other big, leaked, breached data set and then I can sort it by some field that will tell me who’s worth fucking. And then I can then go to those people and do the leg work necessary to figure out who their trusted third parties are and I can fish those people. And I wonder if like that wouldn’t create a bunch of really chewy, complicated security problems. I mean, one of the things that’s in Walk Away is that they’re sceptical of [inaudible 16:35] secrets, in part because complexity is the enemy of good security and you know, having this kind of ever expanding cloud that’s like geometrically expanding cloud of I trust you and these nine other people, any five of them and they all have their own list of ten with any five and you know, figuring out like is there like six of them you could roll up and like suborn and then get access to a whole ton of stuff. Like it’s a – it’s a very complicated and difficult question and I think it’s fun to do thought experiments with but it’s the kind of thing that before you ever ask someone to entrust something to, it’s the kind of thing that you really want read teams to look at. Cause I know that, you know, in the aggregate our social behaviour is a lot more deterministic than we think it is, particularly if you only care about one or two sigmas. If you just want to compromise – If you say that within any four million people that you are compromisable there’ll be two hundred that are really worth compromising then – which seems to me like kind of there’s a rule of thumb, probably like a pretty conservative estimate, then – asking yourself whether you could get two hundred account thefts out of a breech set of four million, which is a small breech set, by doing them – You know, essentially by doing the equivalent of checking if anyone’s password is ‘password’, right whether anyone’s like fallback is their mum, their wife, their dad and their boss. You know, then I worry that it creates a very compromisable environment.

Dan: One of the other themes which I’ve just heard as well is kind of, do we know what we’re getting ourselves in for? So it’s this what does consent mean in the field of new and unknown. So in version one of Dark Crystal it was – once we knew what the problem was that we were experimenting with – the first version was – is the kind of non-ideal, hacky, get it as close to something as possible. The side effect of – the side effect of that is that at the moment you can essentially implicate or others in the project would say, ideally speak to people before sending it off to them, but essentially you can send people secrets without necessarily in a problematic way, garnering consent from them. And so this brings up a whole kind of ethical question of yeah do people know what it is that they’re getting themselves in for. A related project that I’ve come by which is connected to – I’ve forgotten which uni it came out of. [Inaudible 19:30] Erin and Ian Goldberg I think. I forget which university but I saw it pop up on the open privacy – Sarah or Jamie Wilson have they ever popped up on your radar?

Cory: No, I’ve never heard of it.

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Dan: Yes, OK. So there’s a current, emergent way to try and understand those kind of people-centred technologies as being less – less about trying to make people do things in a computer way and more thinking about how can we make computers mimic the way people do things. So one of the problems that we had at the beginning of what was the genesis of the Dark Crystal project, was to get people access to these systems you needed to teach people password managers and I don’t know if you know this, statistically speaking I think, about between seventeen and eighteen percent of Bitcoins that have ever been – or ever will be generated, statistically speaking, look like they’ve kind of been lost. And so I’ve got this kind of small – and by that I mean you would expect some small fraction of a larger holdings to have been moved or sold off during peaks of changes in price and there’s like whole trenches of coins which just haven’t moved in a super long time so the speculation is they’ve been lost. And so kind of – I extrapolate from that and go; well if you can’t pay people to learn how to use password managers securely then it’s highly unlikely that people thus incentivised, will be able to. And so if at the core of managing our data more securely, it’s gonna rely on password managers then we’re kind of screwed. Although this isn’t me saying don’t use them; I think they’re super important. But the thing that I really like about the arc within Walk Away is the sense that is I do think people are able to problem solve things like OK I think I have my apartment and who would I leave my key with in case I lose my wallet and my keys. And that’s kind of a much more human thing which I think most people can do to some degree. So essentially we’re thinking about who would I trust how much and for how long?
So in your travels with the experiences that you’ve had that made you think about that stuff, has anyone else come and spoken to you since that kind of theme within the book or have you kind of learnt about any other projects in that realm that have kind of added some recourse to the tale?

Cory: Well the thing that comes to mind is a presentation I recently saw at the Swiss Cyber Storm Conference where the Googler who’s in charge of their password recovery and anti-fishing, talked about how the system relies on a whole bunch of heuristics that are not either the things your stupid bank ask you when they’re like: “We’re looking at your credit report, can you tell me how much you spent last week on Amazon?” as a way of validating you, but instead like a bunch of stuff like: “Which of these six people do you know?” or you know: “Which of these four cafes did you go to the last time you were in Berlin?” Which, you know, creepy that they know all that shit but at the same time it does look a lot more like how we might authenticate a person. And, you know, in some ways these are all just shibboleths right, like things that are – that can only be pronounced by the trusted parties and that the untrusted parties can’t pronounce. And you know, I think that often times shibboleths can lead us astray, that we often assume that they’re harder to forge than they turn out to be. I mean think of all those green activists in the UK who got fooled by, you know, coppers who grew out dreadlocks and learnt to speak like anti-third-runway types and then, you know, went on to impregnate some of them. But, you know, as an adjunct to or maybe as something that is computationally managed and has maybe some calculable complexity or, you know, that can be thought of against a large data set and you can say well what is the proportion of people in this you know, huge league data set that we have, who would have been made secure by the deployment of given shibboleths then maybe we can do – add scale automated versions of this stuff.

Dan: And that’s something that, in my research around this stuff, is like what does already exist? And I think in 2000 people left their work on Facebook, a lot of the time with good reason but I often wonder what it’s like in the belly of the beast when you’ve got these wicked smart people kind of thinking about this stuff. And in 2011 – I’m gonna screw up the names because it’s not that much in my brain but something like Trusted Contacts, where essentially it’s the same thing where someone’s lost their phone, access to their email and they can’t remember their password and they don’t want to provide identification to some unknown person within Facebook, then you can, in your setting, set up trusted contacts where as long as you can remember one of them, when you’ve forgotten your password, then those three to five people that you’ve identified get sent and code and then you’re meant to be able to ring them out of band - so on the phone or whatever. And what’s interesting is in my – since learning about that I’ve tried to find people who have used it – within this centralised context, what I’ve found is often people don’t – it’s not often nowadays that people kind of lose phone and email and aren’t willing to show ID. However in these peer-to-peer systems there is no Facebook, there’s no person that you can go back - so we’re kind of left with not many of the centralised options. OK -

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Dan: When I asked that – I kind of – that quote that I started off with, was enough to kind of spurn around ten of us, at times more, on this year or two year journey, kind of delving deeper into that problem. So it doesn’t surprise me to hear that you – that the story that you’ve just related so rich – I’m really sorry about the tragedy-studded nature of it but I think that kind of, what you’ve highlighted is something that any person who maintains a relationship with the internet, whether they think about it or not – this has kind of come up in some shape or form. And so at the heart of Dark Crystal was the question of – although it was slightly orthogonal, it was how – when we say peer-to-peer, peer-to-peer, who are the peers that we’re considering, because although Block Chain is one sub set, it’s one of the ones which has been getting a lot of hype and air-time. Typically the composition of people is not super diverse and so the beginning of the project was figuring out what would it mean to expand who gets to be a peer in these systems and we should shout out to [inaudible 06:52] who in the money lab [inaudible 06:57] postcards from the future, was kind of – is also one of our advisors actually. I should get her on to say this stuff in her own words. That kind of figuring out who gets to be a peer and peer-to-peer systems, when you’re focussing on that custody problem, it really quickly gets into the realm of how do you securely pass data across transformations – so be it death or incapacitation or if you’re crossing a border and your stuff gets seized or other such, has been a problem that probably we could spend a whole number of years on. And one of the things that really inspired me about the way that you wrote about [inaudible 07:45] secret sharing was that it was so closely mapped to the relationships of the characters in the story. And what I really liked about the novel or that theme in the story was although it was a deeply technological question, it was kind of, the technology needed to get out of the way and figure out how the humans would do it in any case and I know that’s something – that feature of Walk Away, this notion of kind of, human relationships amplified by technology is the theme that’s really inspired a lot of the Scuttlebutt folk. Have you – I know that you’ve written about Scuttlebutt before, have you like tried it out, have you looked at it -

Cory: No.

Dan: - has anyone around you showed it or…

Cory: No. I don’t have anyone to Scuttlebutt with. This is the problem with social technologies.

@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

I have gone ahead and gotten this episode transcribed by the TypeOlogy Coop

transcription notes: https://hackmd.io/7jlFc7B2TE2MJxgB3z5zOg

request!: anyone with inclination and some moments could you help finish the transcription?


File: Dark Crystal Diaries 1

Dan: Hello everyone out there in cyber space. This is Dan Hassan and I am with Cory Doctorow. This is the first in a series called Dark Crystal Diaries, where we’ll be speaking to friends, peers and advisors connected to the Dark Crystal project. Cory; I’m not gonna use the precious time that we have to introduce you. I think the typical audience for this are all gonna know who you are [inaudible 0:31] link out to a recent show that you did with Jamie King on Steal This Show, which I think is probably a good primer for this.

Cory: Yep.

Dan: So the short hand of how we’ve come to be on this call is that Cory and I have a mutual friend Emily Jones, who has connected us both. So Cory, at first when I reached out to you, I think the way that I framed the project was kind of based in the history of crypto currencies and you’re pretty well documented as being a sceptic of kind of a lot of the block chain hype and I think I miss-pitched dark crystal to begin with but it’s really good that I did I think, because we’ve come through to the other side to something where you have agreed to kind of, consider working with us a bit more. So I’m just gonna read something from Walk Away which – the reason being is it’s right at the kernel, the seed of why I was interested in speaking with you and that is from Kindle page five ten. There’s plenty of crypto we need to try and figure this out, using shared secrets to split the key into say, ten pieces as such that any five can be used to unlock the file. Do you remember writing that?

Cory: Oh yeah. Sure. Yeah.

Dan: And so I’m super interested in the conversations that would have lead kind of into that arch within Walk Away coming out. Was that stuff that was of interest to you for your own reading or do you know, as you put it, a number of crypto [inaudible 02:24] ?

Cory: Well a little of both and really you know, the thing that got me thinking about how you would intentionally share your data with trusted parties after you were no longer able to control it, like after you were dead, was that a very dear friend of mine and a technologist who I grew up with; a guy named Eric Stuart who went by [inaudible 02:48] died of a freak brain aneurysm when he was in his early forties. He just went to bed one night and never woke up. And you know, lucky stroke for all of us, he had left his computers on with his encrypted discs all mounted and no screen lock and I went over and plugged a terabyte hard drive in and captured all of his data and reincrypted it and stuck it in an Amazon glacier locker and pre-paid for ten years of storage for his parents until they could figure out what to do with his data. And you know, around about the same time I think it was my friend Charlie Straw mentioned that by such and such a year – twenty-twenty or twenty-thirty – some pretty soon year, the majority of internet users would be dead right, the majority of people who’d ever used the internet would be dead and their data footprints would be all over the internet. You know, also around that same time my friend Erin Schwartz hanged himself after he’d been hounded by US federal prosecuters for downloading scientific articles from MIT’s network and he had a very prolific data footprint that his friends struggled to figure out what to do with. And there was also, around that time, a cryptographer who was driving back from a cryto-conference – I don’t know his name because I only saw the presentation by his friend the next year, but he and his wife were in a car wreck that killed him and being a cryptographer, all of his data was really, really well encrypted and he’d never figured out any kind of succession plan. So all of those things got me thinking and you know, I have a data will that explains what I would like done with my data and also how to access all my data and you know, there are master passwords needed to get that and that master password has been split into two pieces that I hand wrote on slips of paper and I gave half of it to a lawyer in San Francisco, who is actually sitting about fifty yards from where I am now and the other to a lawyer in London, on the theory that it would be much harder to compel disclosure from lawyers in two different jurisdictions than it would be for one, along with instructions of when I’d like that stuff turned over to my wife or someone else if I were incapacitated or dead or whatever. And thinking about all of that and how thorny that problem is and how potentially compromising it is to trust third parties with access to all of your data while you’re alive and how potentially terrible it is for your loved ones not to be able to access your data after you’re dead and trying to figure out how to strike a balance between those two tensions. That was something that I really have been thinking about a lot.

@kawaiipunk
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@Jim
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@Rich
Re: %607dXSQuO

I had a lot of thoughts about this so I posted them on Twitter where Marissa can participate.

@personanonduvda
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@personanonduvda
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@government_spy_maybe
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@Rich
Re: %607dXSQuO

Listened to both sides today. The vibe shifts a lot when the localhost shifts eh!

Thanks for your work @dan hassan. I thought the conversation was slow according to some metrics, but then also extremely revealing and deep too. And even a slow conversation is really nice to listen to when the people are warm and interesting.

I really appreciate the sorta diplomacy work you are doing in communicating between people who are most marginalised, and the people who are build technology they hope is liberating for all humans.

I didn't really understand what happened with the sex worker thread in SSB. Would love a link to the original if someone can find it.

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User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@methyltheobromine
Re: %607dXSQuO

hey I just wanted to ask if there is a rss feed somewhere? thank you for your great work <3

@teq
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@methyltheobromine
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@pes
Re: %607dXSQuO

What's the SSB thread discussed in part B?

@sera
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@peg
Voted Marissa has released on soundcloud and made some awesome art for it :) ![
@Marco
Re: %607dXSQuO

<3 <3 <3

@Marco
Voted I met up with both marissa and anna in london and we plan to make another r
@Dan Hassan
Re: %607dXSQuO

I met up with both marissa and anna in london and we plan to make another recording within the next month...

@Mindy Seu
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@Ed Summers
Voted [@Ed Summers](@n2ax/dvrm+u76UhEv6aN0MzlH0Zw7o0MOd5QIHjouSw=.ed25519) one of
@Marco
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@Marco
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@Marco
Voted [@Ed Summers](@n2ax/dvrm+u76UhEv6aN0MzlH0Zw7o0MOd5QIHjouSw=.ed25519) one of
@Jacob (desktop)
Voted [@Ed Summers](@n2ax/dvrm+u76UhEv6aN0MzlH0Zw7o0MOd5QIHjouSw=.ed25519) one of
@personanonduvda
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Thanks Dan, very much appreciated.

Trust, trust is a strange thing.

@enkiv2
Voted That shit about torturing friends and family is not chill. I was wondering
@enkiv2
Voted [@dan hassan android](@bC52DlvFXtmI9aBCRENa9kCGGTg1YJQYMB4zEofYAnA=.ed25519
@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

@Ed Summers one of my jobs over the next period will be to figure out RSS for #the-local-gossip to make it easier for people to plug into their existing feeds...

@Ed Summers
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Thanks for this! If there are going to be more of these I'd love to have a podcast url to put in my player.

@Ed Summers
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@kieran
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@d6e
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@jasongreen
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@Zabet R.
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@Powersource
Voted That shit about torturing friends and family is not chill. I was wondering
@Powersource
Voted This is super conceptually dense hehe. I feel like by the end of the record
@Powersource
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@Rich
Voted That shit about torturing friends and family is not chill. I was wondering
@mix
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

That shit about torturing friends and family is not chill.
I was wondering in the shower though about if the secrets we're holding are mainly money / asset related then a good solution to not getting tortured is to not be disproportionately rich?!

This certainly raises a bunch of flags about just casually wandering into the border-crossing problem. That is not a simple case at all.

@polylith
Voted [@dan hassan android](@bC52DlvFXtmI9aBCRENa9kCGGTg1YJQYMB4zEofYAnA=.ed25519
@nanomonkey
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

@dan hassan android, when I met him he mentioned that he had only kicked the tires. I noticed in your cast he sad that he had no one to connect to...was this not, a subtle request for an invite??? You should definitely send him a pub invite, or give him my contact info (if he's still in SF), so that we can on-board him and anyone else at EFF. I'm sure that there are other scuttlebutt ambassadors in other cities that would be happy to do the same.

@peg
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

really enjoyed this! got me excited about the different directions all this could go! and he raised some points to consider carefully...

how cool to have an advisor who is involved in the electronic frontier foundation. so crazy that example with the etheopian journalist. When folks are being paranoid I always think 'yeah but governments don't actually bother hacking into your accounts and stuff...' and then i hear a story like that.

@peg
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@Connor
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

thanks for sharing Dan. Fascinating listen

@Connor
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@kawaiipunk
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

This is super conceptually dense hehe. I feel like by the end of the recording @dan hassan was feeling much the same as I am feeling now listening to it :laughing:

@kawaiipunk
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@bobhaugen
Voted In my happy fun place world, you did.
@nanomonkey
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

In my happy fun place world, you did.

@nanomonkey
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

Did you just prove to Cory that you are actually dan by posting that?!

@mycognosist
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@neftaly
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@polylith
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@hoodownr
Voted # Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow ![shibboleth.png](&TGb0PBCJgkIt7Uy
@Dan Hassan
Re: %YQqmTXmHM

backlink: Asking Cory Doctrow to be an Advisor for Dark Crystal

@Dan Hassan

Dark Crystal Diaries 0: Cory Doctorow

shibboleth.png

https://keybase.pub/danielsan/the-local-gossip/the-local-gossip-NeB4q4Hy-8-dark-crystal-diaries-0-cory-doctorow/dark-crystal-diaries-0-cory-doctorow.mp3

tags: #darkcrystal #dark-crystal #dark-crystal-diaries

@Jules
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
@grammolan
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@Jessica
Voted [@zeroz](@24Qj8pST0woTLo0zDqFDHZqIVPENnwiBeZ+3D3Sx0l8=.ed25519) not sure wh
@VictorMag (notebook)
Subscribed to channel #the-local-gossip
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@manni
Voted [@manni](@JSrjjJja0t6v2Lb8wQN3TPecpPMrdcOcOISsDe68dpA=.ed25519) it was actu
@Dan Hassan
Re: %wTU3UxCKJ

@zeroz check them out - they are awesome!

https://typeology.co.uk/

@Dan Hassan
Re: %jTqp1ZyQ2

In %F5rDVms... there was a suggestion.

@nanomonkey
"What medium are these done over? Mumble? Would it be possible to make the invitation open ended to all that are interested? Can we bend this medium to our collective wills?"

Lets make it happen! Interested to hear thoughts on how we should format the chaos - if at all :)

@Dan Hassan

The Local Gossip Open Airwaves

3cr-radio-freedom-mic-fist.jpg

Join this scry (use mix's infinite game or patchbay): %WCeOR3g...

And select a time for a recorded on the record hang session. Don't know what will happen!

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@Dan Hassan
Voted Yep, sounds like a great idea! How would those transcripts been presented t
@Dan Hassan
Re: %wTU3UxCKJ

@KawaiiPunk good question. I think they should be available in multiple forms.

I think for episodes which are particularly impactful and communicate the culture and people and stakes it might be worth exposing them on the www. not sure. What do you think?

@an na
Voted Marissa has released on soundcloud and made some awesome art for it :) ![
@an na
Voted Opening and closing tracks of both sides A and B: https://soundcloud.com/d
@an na
Voted # Episode 7: Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is ## On scuttlebutt, P2P, As
@squicc
Voted # Transcribing The Local Gossip Episodes ## A Potential Way of Spending s
@kawaiipunk
Re: %wTU3UxCKJ

Yep, sounds like a great idea! How would those transcripts been presented to readers? On the dat site?

@kawaiipunk
Voted # Transcribing The Local Gossip Episodes ## A Potential Way of Spending s
@Dan Hassan
Re: %wTU3UxCKJ

@manni it was actually seeing your transcription which really solidified just how useful they are - I'm a listener rather than a reader and even I found it super useful ;-D

@mycognosist
Voted Marissa has released on soundcloud and made some awesome art for it :) ![
@Dan Hassan
Voted Oh I heard about this service too and thought it sounded awesome! I'm plodd
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@manni
Re: %wTU3UxCKJ

Oh I heard about this service too and thought it sounded awesome! I'm plodding away at the transcription very slowly so I think using that service is a great idea @dan hassan

@Dan Hassan
Re: %wTU3UxCKJ

@zeroz not sure what's surreal about this? To me it makes so much sense.

Many, many of the most potently productive people I know are those with many unmoving constraints placed upon their capacities (racism, ill-health, children, etc) - often times formal work environments have not yet figured out how to value or synchronise with these realities and so you see this super human effort put in by folks fitting into boxes which weren't designed for bodies such as theirs in mind.

A project such as this transcription service is genious. It's mobile, you can work from a hospital waiting room, a bed or from anywhere whilst also eeking out a living within this system.

So much knowledge is locked up in podcasts and they are a major way in which people around the globe are engaging in knowledge production. I have pointed out before that so much knowledge is locked up in books ofc and podcasts allow someone to work a deskjob but have their mind engaged in some more enlivening.

I also love this coop as entities which are transcribing their materials will often be doing it to make the materials more accessible to people of different capacities then getting people of different physical capacities to be involved in and get added to the value flows of making materials more accessible is a virtuous cycle.

@Dan Hassan
Re: %607dXSQuO

Marissa has released on soundcloud and made some awesome art for it :)

the-local-gossip-marissa-anna-dan-put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is.jpeg

https://soundcloud.com/bad-hands-blog/sets/the-local-gossip-podcast-ep-7-w-anna-tuononen-dan-hassan-and-marissa-malik

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@Dan Hassan
Voted [@dan hassan](@NeB4q4Hy9IiMxs5L08oevEhivxW+/aDu/s/0SkNayi0=.ed25519) Transc
@hahawat
Voted # Transcribing The Local Gossip Episodes ## A Potential Way of Spending s
@bobhaugen
Voted [@dan hassan](@NeB4q4Hy9IiMxs5L08oevEhivxW+/aDu/s/0SkNayi0=.ed25519) Transc
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User has chosen not to be hosted publicly
@elavoie
Re: %wTU3UxCKJ

@dan hassan Transcripts work significantly better for me, I read 3-4x faster than I listen to audio.

@cel
Voted # Episode 6: #talenet, #35c3 and #1komona ## Featuring [@katze](@3a/8Vgf
@mycognosist
Voted # Transcribing The Local Gossip Episodes ## A Potential Way of Spending s
@Dan Hassan

Transcribing The Local Gossip Episodes

A Potential Way of Spending some of the :money_with_wings: Open Collective Scuttlebucks :money_with_wings:

Stoer-Lighthouse-Rachel-Wright.jpg

I recently came by this tweet in the twitter-sphere:

We are a workers' co-op founded by disabled people who make audio transcripts. If you have a podcast and funding for transcription (we know not everyone does), contact us!

In episode 7, side B one of the tangible steps which was highlighted could be taken to improve accessibility and diversity within SSB was to back up our values by money (put our money where our mouths are). I've seen so many early signs that we're working in the right direction with this.

When I saw the TypeOlogy service I thought it was synergistically timed to have seen it and also a way which can "Put our Money where our Mouths are", whilst also creating artifacts (podcasts + transcription) which will drift out into the world and communicate not just content about the scuttleverse but also demonstrate our values (through making transacriptions available AND the process we go to acheive that).

I know @manni has been transcribing some of the episodes (which is amazing) AND I am wary of assuming she will do all of them inbetween sessional work.

Quotes

Hi Dan

Great to hear from you - I had been getting round to replying to you on Twitter but we have been slightly overwhelmed by the amount of Twitter attention we have been getting after one tweet apparently went "viral"...

We would love to do this as it fits perfectly in with our aims and values! Our standard rate is £1 per minute and having listened to a bit of the podcast you linked in your tweet it sounds like we'd have no problem transcribing it at that rate if the sound quality is consistent (the issues that might require us to charge a higher rate would include poor recording quality, background noise or a lot of people talking over each other).

We might also be able to transcribe some of your podcasts at a somewhat lower rate (say maybe 90p per minute) if you are not particularly concerned about how fast we do it - we would then basically fit them around other more urgent jobs that we charge a higher rate for and do them when we don't have something more urgent to do. This might be a good option for a back catalogue of stuff?

In terms of exchange rates between UK and US currencies, we would want to invoice maybe every 2 weeks (or every week if you prefer it) to take into account possible fluctuations.

Really hoping we can make this work! Please let us know if there's anything else you need to know.

Estimated costs

If we went for the slower rate this would be 90p per min which is about 1.2 USD per minute at current rates this would be about

54 GBP per episode which is about 70 USD per episode.

We could of course set a cap per episode and then transcribe the rest ourselves.

So far there have been about 7 episodes so we are averaging about 2 episodes per month...

This is about 140 USD per month (assuming no change in velocity)

Questions

  • Do you listen to #the-local-gossip and find they have had content of value?
  • Would a transcription with the episode make them more accessible for you?
  • Would you feel happy to have the transcriptions / episodes floating out in the world as cypher gems which speak to our early culture and some of the characters shaping the cypherspace?
  • Concerns?

tags: #podcasts #podcast #a11y #accessibility #transcriptions

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